 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-17 04:21
Hi guys so I'm using the Buffet Vintage A clarinet and I'm pretty out of tune when playing high e flat, e ,and f. I have to fight (really hard) the clarinet to get it to be 10 cents flat. If I don't even try the note is 20 cents flat. All of my other notes are in tune, but those notes. Then the low e and f is anywhere from 20-40 cents flat. I've other mouthpieces and reeds, but I'm still flat. I've tried raising the back and the front of the tongue. I've tried focusing the embo and air, but still nothing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-17 05:18
So are you saying that you have a Buffet R13 Bb clarinet, and just moving to the "A" you find these discrepancies?
You could be looking at a mouthpiece mismatch (just talking about this on another thread) if you are on an entirely different Bb clarinet.
To help the high Eb (we are talking about third ledger line?) you can play this changing the RH fingers to just third finger and the Eb/Ab key vent. The E should be on the money (the Eb/Ab vent may help or if you are using it, it may be better without.....just try). The high F works much better adding the RH sliver key (what you use for the Eb). Often you no longer need the Eb/Ab vent when you use the sliver key for the high F.
You're pretty much stuck with the low E and F so I still think there is some mismatching going on. A shorter barrel may solve the problem.......maybe. You don't want to cause undue sharpness in the short tube notes like throat Bb and A.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-12-17 05:48
The Buffet Vintage should be a fabulous horn. So, I would have to hold other factors to blame. What is your B-flat horn? I assume you're swapping the mouthpiece from your B-flat to the A. Hopefully you are not swapping barrel and mouthpiece, because, contrary to some opinions, the B-flat and A require different barrels. The bore size, bore shape and length are different. Most quality barrels (Selmer, Buffet, Fobes, etc) will have the barrel stamped with length and horn pitch (such as 650 A).
So, assuming the correct barrel, and a clarinet in good condition, we're looking at Reed strength, mouthpiece or embouchure.
Are the trouble notes okay on the B-flat? I'll bet there are difficulties there too. If not, then your embouchure is probably in okay shape.
Now we're left with mouthpiece and/or reed.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-12-17 22:21
My prestige A is slightly flat on the same notes. I use the fingering suggestions Paul talked about religiously. The 'banana' key is mandatory on high F, whether is my Bb or A horn. I believe this to be true on all Buffets on high F. I've been even know to use ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) with the throat G# key (no pinky Eb) for the high E...it's brighter, but the pitch is a little higher.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-18 03:51
ClarinetRobt wrote:
> My prestige A is slightly flat on the same notes. I use the
> fingering suggestions Paul talked about religiously. The
> 'banana' key is mandatory on high F, whether is my Bb or A
> horn. I believe this to be true on all Buffets on high F.
> I've been even know to use with the throat G# key (no
> pinky Eb) for the high E...it's brighter, but the pitch is a
> little higher.
>
I see I'll vent those notes and see if they work.
@Paul
Yeah my Bb is an R13, so it maybe different clarinets which could cause some problems. I'll also experiment with the venting ideas. If it is a mismatch mouthpiece I'll experiment with a shorter barrel. Also it could be a reed problem, because lately my reeds having been too great because of the constant weather change, but I feel like the clarinet should be forgiving to reeds a little less than good.
@Ken
Don't worry I'm just switching my mouthpiece and not with the barrel. With my Bb I've noticed my G#/Eb notes are extremely sharp, but perhaps that can be adjusted?
I'll experiment with the intonation on both clarinets some more and the new venting ideas, but now I'm sure that most vintages have this problem too considering clarinetrobt has the same problems.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-18 13:23
I personally would have thought the R13/Vintage combo should have worked. Of course one of the best Bbs I've played for pitch was a Buffet Vintage model. And years ago, one of the quirkiest was a Buffet Vintage model. That one featured a flat "A" (first ledger line above the staff) and there was nothing to be done with it. If you bought your "A" clarinet sight unseen without trial, perhaps it is one of the quirky ones.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-20 10:58
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I personally would have thought the R13/Vintage combo should
> have worked. Of course one of the best Bbs I've played for
> pitch was a Buffet Vintage model. And years ago, one of the
> quirkiest was a Buffet Vintage model. That one featured a flat
> "A" (first ledger line above the staff) and there was nothing
> to be done with it. If you bought your "A" clarinet sight
> unseen without trial, perhaps it is one of the quirky ones.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...............Paul Aviles
>
I remember buying the Vintage, because I loved the sound. I thought it sounded better than the Prestige, Tosca, Divine, etc., but the NYC Showroom case ONLY had one. I tried it out and and the pitch was fine, but that was when I was inexperienced with buying clarinets. I did the Ridenour test, Morales test, and a couple of others.
The clarinet tech I went to said it was a good choice. TBH I'm still happy with my choice and I'm thinking maybe it's just me. Plus no clarinet stays completely in tune. Every clarinet requires an alternate fingering. So perhaps this clarinet happens to have a weird high E, Eb, and F, but thanks to you guys I now know to put down the trill key. The only problem left is the high Eb, but I'm going to experiment with the third finger fingering.
There is a problem with my low E and F, but it could've been the reed I was using.
I'll have to do more tests.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-20 13:52
>> With my Bb I've noticed my G#/Eb notes are extremely sharp, but perhaps that can be adjusted? <<
Do you mean the fingering for low G# and clarion D#, where you open a key with your right pinky? Maybe the key is opening too much. Buffet clarinets tend to have very soft synthetic cork for key bumpers and it's common for this to wear/squish on the Ab/Eb key against its small stop.
>> The only problem left is the high Eb, but I'm going to experiment with the third finger fingering. <<
What fingering do you use now? If it is the middle finger one, that is almost always flat (even with the Ab/Eb key pressed).
Post Edited (2015-12-20 13:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-20 16:14
Can't say that I know either the "Morales test" or the "Ridenour test."
Here is one trap to avoid: Don't fall in love with a clarinet with bad intonation.
My first test on a mouthpiece or clarinet is just simply to see if it feels good. You can arrive at this pretty quickly. But then you need to get past that immediately and pull out the tuner. I use the sound first to make sure things are good and close. But then (especially when buying a clarinet) you need to bare down with the meter and check every note.
You want to avoid having to make drastic fingering changes from A to Bb. That's the whole idea behind the term "matched set." You want a "pair of clarinets" that sound similar, feel similar and play similar. It is not just a matter of HAVING and "A" clarinet. It needs to be compatible with you AND your "Bb."
..................Paul Aviles
P.S. I wanted to throw in a "for example." Take a typical Brahms symphony. You don't want to make a quick change only to have to re-think how to play the horn you just grabbed.
Post Edited (2015-12-20 16:16)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-22 00:28
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Can't say that I know either the "Morales test" or the
> "Ridenour test."
>
>
> Here is one trap to avoid: Don't fall in love with a clarinet
> with bad intonation.
>
>
> My first test on a mouthpiece or clarinet is just simply to see
> if it feels good. You can arrive at this pretty quickly. But
> then you need to get past that immediately and pull out the
> tuner. I use the sound first to make sure things are good and
> close. But then (especially when buying a clarinet) you need
> to bare down with the meter and check every note.
>
>
> You want to avoid having to make drastic fingering changes from
> A to Bb. That's the whole idea behind the term "matched set."
> You want a "pair of clarinets" that sound similar, feel
> similar and play similar. It is not just a matter of HAVING
> and "A" clarinet. It needs to be compatible with you AND your
> "Bb."
>
>
>
>
>
> ..................Paul Aviles
>
>
> P.S. I wanted to throw in a "for example." Take a typical
> Brahms symphony. You don't want to make a quick change only to
> have to re-think how to play the horn you just grabbed.
>
>
> Post Edited (2015-12-20 16:16)
That's actually a very useful tip. I feel like bboard should make a joint article on how to choose a clarinet. Instead of people having to find 30 YouTube videos and article.
@clarnibassi
Actually yes that fork fingering Eb is the one I'm talking about, haha! Thanks for the info I didn't know that that finering was naturally flat. Thanks!
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-24 05:13
So! I've done more tests and the low E and F are perfectly fine (with the trill key down) and same with the high E and F, however the flat high Eb still persists. I tested out the 3rd finger Eb and it stays better in tune, but it's still flat. I've also noticed that when I tune my clarinet octave G's they're extremely sharp, so I have to pull out at least 4 mm's from the barrel and 4 mm from the middle joint. So what happens is that the high Eb is affected. I feel like I should buy a 66 or maybe even a 67 mm barrel.
To find out how much bottom lip pressure to put I use the Ridenour mouthpiece test where I try to get it at least -20 to -40 cents flat on C#. So essentially I put my tongue as high I possible can then I push with the bottom lip until it's around that range.
What do you guys think? Should I buy a new barrel? When I tune middle G it's 20 cents sharp (even with right hand down) and my upper G is around 10 or 15 cents sharp.
Post Edited (2015-12-24 11:46)
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-12-24 10:40
I had a Buffet Festival A clarinet (bought 2nd hand from Brad Behn in 2004) that had been tuned and rebored by Guy Chadash. The intonation was superb, except for two things. Middle line B was quite sharp (messing with different bells/pulling the joint etc sorted that) and altissimo E flat was very flat.
Eventually I discovered a fingering that made this high E flat work- I fingered "top line F#" and took it into the altissimo by opening the throat G sharp key.
so
TR XXX 0X0 + throat G sharp
Maybe this will work for you?
dn
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-24 11:47
donald wrote:
> I had a Buffet Festival A clarinet (bought 2nd hand from Brad
> Behn in 2004) that had been tuned and rebored by Guy Chadash.
> The intonation was superb, except for two things. Middle line B
> was quite sharp (messing with different bells/pulling the joint
> etc sorted that) and altissimo E flat was very flat.
> Eventually I discovered a fingering that made this high E flat
> work- I fingered "top line F#" and took it into the altissimo
> by opening the throat G sharp key.
> so
> TR XXX 0X0 + throat G sharp
>
> Maybe this will work for you?
> dn
I'll experiment with that idea. Very creative! I'm betting it does work, but we'll see. Thanks!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-24 13:25
It's not clear if you checked all three regular fingerings:
R T X X X X O O add right hand banana key and pinky Ab/Eb
R T X X X O X O add pinky Ab/Ab (usually flat)
R T X X X O O X add pinky Ab/Eb
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-26 14:53
clarnibass wrote:
> It's not clear if you checked all three regular fingerings:
>
> R T X X X X O O add right hand banana key and pinky Ab/Eb
>
> R T X X X O X O add pinky Ab/Ab (usually flat)
>
> R T X X X O O X add pinky Ab/Eb
Yup I've done all those fingerings.
R T X X X X O O with banana and Ab/Eb (pretty flat)
R T X X X O X O with Ab/Eb (still flat)
R T X X X O O X with Ab/Eb (close to in tune, however can be very flat if I pull out the barrel too much)
R T X X X O X O with throat G# (sharp but easier to bring it flatter)
I've decided the third and last fingerings are the best ones. I usually put a lot of bottom lip pressure, because I take the mouthpiece and play a concert C# around 40-25 cents flat. However, if I put that much bottom lip pressure my octave G's will be too sharp. So sharp that I pull out, my barrel and middle joint 4 mm which affects my high Eb to be crazy flat. So I'm experimenting with less lip pressure.
Note: the fork high Eb wasn't flat because I pulled out so much
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-26 15:09
Um.........
I worry about the open G issue. For me, I tune the clarinet to open G. I want my embouchure to be right in the middle (no undue force, no "Ridenour scooping") with my second line G right in tune.
Taking this tack, more of your horn should fall in line. Too many folks tune to ONE note, a long tube note (well this is the fault of band directors too) and do all sorts of craziness to make THAT note sound (or look......just using the lights on the machine) correct. That craziness can involve a lot of BITING, pinching or whatever you want to call it. The biting makes the short tube notes (like my good friend open G) really SHARP compared to the longer tube notes (like third space C......oh yeah, everyone's favorite "tuning note").
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-27 01:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Um.........
>
>
> I worry about the open G issue. For me, I tune the clarinet to
> open G. I want my embouchure to be right in the middle (no
> undue force, no "Ridenour scooping") with my second line G
> right in tune.
>
>
>
> Taking this tack, more of your horn should fall in line. Too
> many folks tune to ONE note, a long tube note (well this is the
> fault of band directors too) and do all sorts of craziness to
> make THAT note sound (or look......just using the lights on the
> machine) correct. That craziness can involve a lot of BITING,
> pinching or whatever you want to call it. The biting makes the
> short tube notes (like my good friend open G) really SHARP
> compared to the longer tube notes (like third space C......oh
> yeah, everyone's favorite "tuning note").
>
>
>
>
>
> ................Paul Aviles
>
I see what you're saying. I've now changed my ways. I'll probably do what you said to do and experiment from there and see what works for me. Never understood why long pipe C is a favorite.... Pretty dumb if you ask me, but I do know Bob Spring uses middle G and long pipe C to tune. What are people's opinions on tuning middle and long pipe C? And adjusting like the Octave G test?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-27 02:29
Oh and almost forgot.
For me, I also make sure I play a full arpeggio up and down from the tuning note (open G to start, but whichever I moved to next I ensure I play the arpeggio throughout the range).
Well, the tuning is taken from the standard "A" given to the orchestra. It is expedient to give one note to everyone. Strings prefer the "A" and everyone else just goes along. In band settings, you can use the most common fundamental for the woodwinds and brass (oddly, just a half note off from our orchestral brothers).
But in a practice studio, or rehearsal when there is more time than what you have just before a public performance, taking more time to tune more individually can only help.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-28 06:34
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Oh and almost forgot.
>
>
>
> For me, I also make sure I play a full arpeggio up and down
> from the tuning note (open G to start, but whichever I moved to
> next I ensure I play the arpeggio throughout the range).
>
>
>
>
> Well, the tuning is taken from the standard "A" given to the
> orchestra. It is expedient to give one note to everyone.
> Strings prefer the "A" and everyone else just goes along. In
> band settings, you can use the most common fundamental for the
> woodwinds and brass (oddly, just a half note off from our
> orchestral brothers).
>
>
>
> But in a practice studio, or rehearsal when there is more time
> than what you have just before a public performance, taking
> more time to tune more individually can only help.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ..............Paul Aviles
>
I'll do the apreggio part too, however why do the apreggio up?
Yeah before rehearsals I usually just tune myself.
I've also noticed something about my low E and F on my A clarinet. It seems like they won't play in tune unless the reed is great, but if it's okay then I can't do anything to bring it sharper. Is this normal? To have notes be out of tune because of a bad or okay reed?
Post Edited (2015-12-28 07:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-28 08:37
You'll find the majority of clarinets are designed so the low E and F are purposely flat so the B and C a 12th higher are in tune as they're more important notes to have in tune than a slightly flat low E and F which is the trade-off or compromise makers have to do.
That's why some Boehm system clarinets (Backun MoBa, Buffet Elite, Tosca and Divine, Selmer Recital and Yamaha CSGIII) have or are being fitted with a low E and F correction key which is an idea taken from Oehler system clarinets as their low Es and Fs are significantly flatter due to the German bore (which only widens out by the lowest tonehole), so they have a RH thumb key that opens vent keys near the tenon of the lower joint and another on the bell to bring low E and F up to pitch (and playing low E closes off the low F correction vent automatically).
Backun, Buffet and Selmer have fitted an automatic key that is operated along with the speaker key so the player doesn't have to do anything extra fingering (or thumbing) wise. But Yamaha have a thumb operated key as Oehler systems so it's up to the player to bring the low E and F up to pitch as they feel necessary (just as Oehler system players would).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-28 08:49
Chris P wrote:
> You'll find the majority of clarinets are designed so the low E
> and F are purposely flat so the B and C a 12th higher are in
> tune as they're more important notes to have in tune than a
> slightly flat low E and F which is the trade-off or compromise
> makers have to do.
>
> That's why some Boehm system clarinets (Backun MoBa, Buffet
> Elite, Tosca and Divine, Selmer Recital and Yamaha CSGIII) have
> or are being fitted with a low E and F correction key which is
> an idea taken from Oehler system clarinets as their low Es and
> Fs are significantly flatter due to the German bore (which only
> widens out by the lowest tonehole), so they have a RH thumb key
> that opens vent keys near the tenon of the lower joint and
> another on the bell to bring low E and F up to pitch (and
> playing low E closes off the low F correction vent
> automatically).
>
> Backun, Buffet and Selmer have fitted an automatic key that is
> operated along with the speaker key so the player doesn't have
> to do anything extra fingering (or thumbing) wise. But Yamaha
> have a thumb operated key as Oehler systems so it's up to the
> player to bring the low E and F up to pitch as they feel
> necessary (just as Oehler system players would).
>
Acch... how annoying! Obviously the Vintage doesn't have it sadly, but to be honest I don't really think I want to spend 8k for something that brings the low E and F more in tune. Sure playing in tune is VERY important, but if the right reed can bring it in tune I don't think I really need to spend that extra 3k. Plus I've always liked the sound I got out of the Vintage MORE than the Tosca and Divine. Anyway I see the low E and F could be a problem, but it's a problem I can deal with.
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