 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-15 07:01
This evening I happened to dig up a Henry Mancini tune that I hadn't listened to since my bucket list clarinet adventure began in 2010. I'm pretty sure "Hangin' Out" is not one of Hank's best known compositions. You can find it on YouTube if you want to hear ALL the whistling.
Anyway, I always liked the Dixieland(?*) style interlude, with prominent trumpet and clarinet.
http://www.FLmemories.com/C/HanginOutBridge.mp3. And now that I have a finer ear for it, I think I hear a lot more intricate phrasing in the clarinet line than before. (Anyone prepared to dismiss it as "just noodling around"?)
Perhaps I may spend some time trying to glean usable lessons from this clip, even to the point of attempting some transcription. (I find I can now decipher many things on the fly that used to require deep study. We will see about this one.)
Some of you here on BBoard have long careers in all types of clarinet performance situations, and I'm curious how something like this might have gone down in the studio with Mr. Mancini in 1974. Would the clarinetist (more likely- "reed player") be expected, could they, could YOU, come up with the performance or something equal or better on your own? If so, how many tries might you get? Take it home and come back tomorrow? Any chance it was partially or fully written out? Let me check the key... concert Ab- not too bad to improvise in Bb, could be a lot worse. Would you pack an A clarinet just in case?
*No other proper name for this style but "Dixieland", right?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-12-17 07:25)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2015-12-15 07:40
wouldn't be an issue for a competent dixieland clarinettist - probably wouldn't play the same thing twice anyway. As for concert A flat it's a normal key for horns and clarinets no big deal. It'd be somewhat harder on an A clarinet!
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-15 07:46
The A clarinet would be for some other key. As I note in another thread, Boots Randolph plays a pretty neat tenor sax solo on Elvis' "Reconsider Baby" in concert E. All in a day's work I guess.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-17 07:38
I found more info about this song...
"Mancini headed up the core band on piano alongside Dick Nash, Ralph Grierson on keyboards, Dominic Fero on clarinet and Shelly Manne on drums ...the generous conductor allowed plenty of room for solos from his distinguished personnel. “Hangin’ Out” was a particular treat, performed by the Dixieland group “Hank Mancini and the Mouldy Seven” for this occasion only!"
I would love to hear the studio tapes from start to finish. What is actually written for clarinet? Does it just say "ad lib"? Does Mancini even attempt to guide it? Surely he had something in mind.
If a studio dixieland clarinet player would not play the same thing twice, do you suggest that all variations are of equal quality? How can neat interactions between trumpet and clarinet (for example) be worked out if both parts were changing on every iteration? I suppose if players have worked together for decades and know each other's musical palettes inside out, it could work, I just doubt optimally. But I also imagine that something magic could happen on take 7 and not be reproducible on the final version, no matter how much the group might try.
If you've got the stomach for Elvis' early studio work (I eat it up), go on YouTube and find the studio take sequences for some of his best known songs. The musicians grind it through take by take until they settle. And the final takes vary as little as possible. Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?
Now I need to search for "Dominic Fero".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-12-17 10:57
It may be Dominick Fera, a fine clarinet player in Los Angeles in that era. They may have had the head or tune written out, with the improvised sections only shown as chord symbols.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-12-17 11:03
Stan,
I agree with Chris Moffat.
I would expect the "dixieland" style was played improvised. Perhaps a few rough guidelines were discussed between clarinet and trombone to avoid stepping on one another in the harmonies or something like that, but I'd be surprised if it went much beyond that.
I haven't observed or taken part in such studio sessions, but I have watched musicians who do studio session work, and I've watched them sit down with a group of players they've never played with before, and pull off performances every bit as polished as the recorded sample you provided.
My answer isn't one made with authority - just an educated guess having observed a lot of top tier trad/dixie/New Orleans style musicians play in person, and with various spontaneous groups (even folks walking up and sitting in for a few tunes with bands they've never played with, sounding like they've been together for a decade).
The basic rules for this type of playing are: one instrument takes the lead (usually the trumpet) - and leaves space for the other two instruments to fill/embellish. The other two (or more) instruments take care of filling out the chord structure via harmony (and/or embellishment around the melody). Music is generally not "read" as they usually are thinking in chord changes, so it would be pretty common to see either a chord sheet, or just a I IV V sheet showing the progressions - not necessarily in a specific key...and the musicians make educated decisions based on what they hear the other musicians do in real time. If the trombone suddenly jumps up and takes the 5th of the chord, the clarinet might have to make an awkward jump down to the third, root, or up to the 7th in order to avoid stepping on the trombone or melody, etc.
This isn't to say that studio sessions or recording sessions aren't a little more delineated, but the talent/knowledge possessed by these folks allows them to do amazing things on the fly.
Edit: I agree with Wes too (I didn't see his post until after mine posted.)
Post Edited (2015-12-17 11:19)
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-12-17 14:22
''If a studio dixieland clarinet player would not play the same thing twice, do you suggest that all variations are of equal quality? How can neat interactions between trumpet and clarinet (for example) be worked out if both parts were changing on every iteration? ''
Well then, this is part of the mystique of jazz.
Fuzzystradjazz sums it up fairly sucinctly.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-17 21:22
Thanks for the info and observations. Neat stuff.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-12-18 01:34
Stan,
I forgot to answer your question about the term "Dixieland" - it means different things to different people, but now-a-days, it is frequently used interchangeably with any number of different terms such as "Trad Jazz" "Hot Jazz" "New Orleans Jazz" "Chicago Jazz" - or even "West Coast Jazz" - etc. Whether accurate or not - the terms are thrown around pretty loosely now...and usually refer (in at least a basic sense) to what a casual observer might refer to as dixieland. YouTube sorta confuses the issue, but you should be able to find "dixieland" music (or a reasonable facsimile) using pretty much any of the terms as search criteria.
There are quite a few fights on the various boards about the accurate use of terms, but "Trad jazz" seems to be the "least offensive" and most widely accepted term at the moment (just my opinion.)
Feel free to e-mail me if you want to discuss trad jazz - I'm always eager to chat with other folks who are interested in this style of music.
Here's a fun little stripped-down group (put together just for the festival) from 2010: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gytWpfRcFbo
A favorite quote from one of my favorite jazz cornet players, Connie Jones: "We're not guessing up here!"
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-12-18 03:46
Studio players can be pretty amazing in their versatility. Mike Vax. for instance, was lead trumpet for Stan Kenton and also played trumpet in the Dukes of Dixieland! Talk about "musicians without borders!"
An interesting solo to transcribe in the swinging Dixieland idiom (as opposed to the old two-beat Dixieland) is Pete Fountain's tenor sax solo (that's right, many moons ago he played tenor) on YouTube at Al Hirt Pete Fountain Washington and Lee Swing. In fact, anything Pete plays on that album, mostly of course on clarinet, is worth transcribing, incuding his one of a kind bluesy rendition of "Tin Roof Blues." This was originally a Verve recording reissued on MGM E/SE 4126.
I heard Fountain play these tunes live with Hirt many times in New Orleans, and he played them the way a great quilt maker makes successive quilts on the same theme--similar in overall patterns but very different in coloration and turns of phrase. Definitely not note for note alike each night. And this variation was deliberate on his part--he called it "good workmanship."
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-18 07:41
Nice clip, Fuzzy- are you one of the clarinet players? Also, with respect to the various terms for this admittedly wide ranging style of music- could either your clip, or the one I posted first, be more accurately categorized as something narrower than "Dixieland"? Something related to speed or meter?
Seabreeze (Bob)- I never knew (but am not surprised) Pete played tenor sax and probably other reeds. I found that clip at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVSj0zmOE9M... good stuff.
Stan in Orlando
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-18 07:54
And here's a 1980 clip I hesitate to call "Dixieland" (should I?)- yet it has to my ear a very similar styling and interplay between trombone, trumpet, and clarinet, and I like it very much. Sorry for the politically incorrect song title and lyrics, that's Hank Williams Jr for you. http://www.FLmemories.com/C/WomenInterlude.MP3 (Just checked the key- concert D- clarinet in E isn't too bad, anyone prefer Eb over E?)
Horn players in country music? Wouldn't you starve? For sure you'd better be prepared to play in tougher keys.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-12-18 08:12)
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-12-18 08:41
''And here's a 1980 clip I hesitate to call "Dixieland" (should I?)''
Yes, you should hesitate, this sounds like some commercial session with a country singer and some studio musos doing stuff - not real jazz in my view.
''Real jazz'' - by that I mean music recorded for a jazz market.
Ry Cooder, Leon Redbone and Maria Muldaur come to mind. I'm not against it as I have LPs of their stuff anyway because they sing ''rool gerd'' - I certainly didn't buy their stuff thinking it was jazz.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-12-18 09:08
Seabreeze: I didn't make my first trip down to New Orleans until 2007, so I missed Al Hirt entirely. That must have been great to hear live!
Stan: I'm sorry for the confusion. No, I'm not one of the players in the youtube link (I wish!) That's Kim Cusack (Chicago-based player) playing with Anita Thomas (Australian, West Coast, East Coast - she's from everywhere!) I just love their interplay. My skill set isn't that high. I'm still working at it.
As per the correct "term" for the samples you reference...I honestly don't know how to answer that. I think you could ask ten people and probably get nine different answers. The excerpts definitely have components of dixie/trad, but the beat and surrounding music take my ear somewhere else. I would have a difficult time deciding how to label it if talking to someone else. Sorta like a dixie break over western swing rhythm and chords or something? (I'm really bad at the terminology aspect.) Sorry I can't help with that one!
Fuzzy
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-12-18 12:59
Fuzzy,
I have seen YouTube videos of that group with Hal Smith on drums. It's a good group nonetheless, but Hal is something else! He does all the right stuff.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-12-18 14:40
Ned,
I agree with you about Hal. He's in my "top 10" list of musicians I haven't heard live yet. I have lots of friends who know him personally, so I live vicariously through them! Via social media, he has introduced me to a lot of great old recordings of musicians I otherwise would have glossed over. He has a great ear for what is going on in the front line - not just the rhythm section! I really admire that. Did you ever follow his work down in Austin (like with the Thrift Set Orchestra with Johnathan Doyle, Albanie Faletta, Dave Jellema, etc.?) Pretty cool stuff too. He's on a lot of recordings I own, but my favorites are with clarinetist Tim Laughlin...what a combination! I hear rumors that a "Volume 2" might be in the works for Tim's "Trio Collection"!
Fuzzy
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