 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-14 04:46
Learning to play song in upper register to C6 and tip of reed jams or sticks to mouthpiece and squeaks or no sound comes out. Usually have tried to avoid upper register notes unless only a few in song here and there but now want to move forward. This is Key of C and has all notes from C5 to C6. Any idea what to do? Reed plays well in lower register. What should I look at? Too wet, too dry, fingering or mouth wrong? More practice?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-12-14 05:31
what mouthpiece, what reed?
There are mouthpiece/reed combinations that work better than others... for instance, your reed might be too soft for the mouthpiece you are using.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-14 07:05
Are you biting or changing your embouchure with these notes that are both new to, and higher than your usual play, in turn causing the reed/mouthpiece fuse?
Embouchure pretty much remains constant throughout the range of the instrument.
There are of course exceptions to that like glisssandos--an advanced skill I'm pretty sure you're neither facing, nor should be right now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-14 07:31
To answer question it is D'Addario Reserve Classic 2.5 with 10 playings and a Vandoren 88 Lyre 13 MPC. Reed bag humidity was 80% and room humidity 55%, not that these are factors. The reed played "Good" the first 9 playings but the fault may be I play very little of the high register notes so far and I may just need more practice with coordination. Lower register is good and I also had a new song where a few high register notes, like A4-B4-G4-B4-A were a bit difficult until I worked on them some. This song has most all high register and maybe I was applying too much pressure at end and pressing reed . Maybe it was too wet and tended to stick. iwill try it some more an let you know. Just wondered if if I was missing something obvious, since never really played these notes often and not many of them together.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-14 07:31
If the reed truly "sticks" to the mouthpiece, you're closing it for one of two reasons. (1) You're biting too hard in an an effort (mostly wasted) to make the notes come out. (2) You're playing on a reed that's too soft so that even normal embouchure pressure is too much and the reed is closing.
You've probably said what mouthpiece and reed you're using in some of your other posts, but remind us - it's hard to keep everyone's equipment straight.
To answer some of your question more directly: Too wet or too dry won't make the reed "stick." More practice without knowing why the problem is happening won't help. For practice to help, you need to know what mistake you're trying to correct or technique you're trying to improve.
Almost any reed that isn't very much too hard will play in the low register. Whether or not it plays well is something we have to take your word about. But a too soft reed will work in the chalumeau register. You don't notice the weakness as much until you start to go above F5 or F#5.
You should check and try to decide if the reed is really closing against the mouthpiece or the *sound* is stopping for some other reason. For example if your LH thumb isn't completely covering the hole while you press the tip of the register key, C6 *might* not speak or might be very unstable. I think I remember that some of your problem going from Bb4 to C5 or A4 to B4 turned out out to be incomplete covering of the thumb hole.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-12-14 07:44
This used to happen to me. I'd recently switched from my stock Buffet mouthpiece to a Vandoren M13-Lyre. Sometimes the symptoms you describe would appear using the new mouthpiece (which otherwise I liked.) I couldn't figure it out, and trying harder to avoid the problem made it happen more. It was infuriating, and I had no one to ask.
It was as though air pressure would completely seal the reed to the rim of the mouthpiece opening, and not only would it not make sound, it would stop the flow of air. Sometimes I could make the problem go away by repositioning the reed slightly, but then it would come back.
I never figured it out. At some point I got angry enough to do something stupid, and then I put the M13-Lyre away and went back to my old mouthpiece. I played that a year or more no problem.
Then one day I decided to try the M13-Lyre again, which was basically intact despite my stupid actions, and it worked fine. I rarely had the problem again, perhaps briefly once or twice. I'd used the same reeds through this whole sequence.
I still don't know what fixed the problem, but I'll guess it was some pertinent embouchure changes. For one, I gradually learned to bite less. This involved identifying what biting is, and my answer is that it can be several things, that is, several different muscle actions, any of which pressure the reed. Another thing I'd changed was to take slightly more mouthpiece into the mouth. And eventually I switched to double-lip embouchure, and I've never had any hint of such problems since then. Note, you'll really notice - and need to correct - any biting tendencies if you use double-lip embouchure.
Probably a teacher would see you do this once and instantly identify the problem and solution. If that can't be, maybe try this: play a throat F, make if nice and full, and then add the octave key to switch to C6. Monitor yourself for any embouchure or tongue changes you make in between. If you notice any, think about them. Ideally you won't need to change anything across the 12ths, except possibly for intonation - but for now just see if you can isolate what's causing the problem.
Wish I could be more definite; even though the problem is years in the past for me, I never quite figured it out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-14 08:03
Philip Caron wrote:
> Then one day I decided to try the M13-Lyre again, which was
> basically intact despite my stupid actions,
Which part wasn't "intact?"
> Probably a teacher would see you do this once and instantly
> identify the problem and solution.
Yes, and so many other problems as well. Doesn't have to be a long-term lesson commitment. A couple of lessons to cover basics could save a lot of frustration.
> If that can't be, maybe try
> this: play a throat F, make if nice and full, and then add the
> octave key to switch to C6.
This can actually work even better if you get someone else to press the register key. The two advantages are that: (1) you won't have to change your thumb position, eliminating a slightly open thumb hole as a cause; (2) you won't know exactly when the helper will open the register hole, so you won't be as likely to make any change in your embouchure pressure, oral shape or tongue position. I use a similar approach with my students who have trouble going over the break from A3-B3 or Bb3-C4 - we turn the mouthpiece backward and they blow while I finger to get the feel of not moving the lips or mouth to make the transition. So many bad things happen when you tighten up to try to make something work.
BTW, BGBG - think about how much of the reed is in your mouth. If you're taking too little, that could also explain closing the reed too easily.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-12-14 08:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-14 08:35
Its getting better. Will try some more tomorrow.Thanks for the tips.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-14 08:50
I had a terrible time with the high notes. The problem was my pretty severe underbite. My bottom lip was actually so close to the tip, muting the portion of the reed that should be freely vibrating, I think they call it the fulcrum or pivot point, you know, where the reed and mpc table separate.
The fix was extremely simple, move the bottom lip forward by moving the lower jaw forward, just a bit maybe 1/4" behind the fulcrum allowing the reed tip to vibrate free. Where before I had problems with even C6, now with that little change, C7 and above if I knew the fingerings.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-14 08:59
Not a particularly difficult song-just all higher notes I know how to make but never really practiced playing except just running up the scale. Funny thing was it would "stick" in the high position and make a high note without my pressing th register key and I would have to suck or blow to get it to sound the lower register. That is what I meant by sticking.
Song is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klwxpVSN1hs
(Should be Part 2)
Post Edited (2015-12-14 09:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-15 04:38
Same reeds are better today. Good clear notes C5-C6. Soaked a little longer and tightened mouth. Maybe I am a bit better also? But sounding good.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-15 09:01
The Vandoren M13-Lyre is a great mouthpiece, but it is also, on the continuum of mouthpiece tip openings and facings, a relatively closed tip mouthpiece, at 1.02mm, with relatively long rails.
Both factors contribute to the ease with which one can easily and unconsciously clamp down with their embouchure, even if ever so slightly, affix it to the mouthpiece with their bite, and prevent the reed from vibrating. Of course this may not be the problem.
I'm not suggesting a mouthpiece change or even a reed strength change at this stage. Just heed Karl's suggestions of tuning into the state of your mouth while you play.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-12-15 15:19
https://soundcloud.com/klezmertom/marcellus-master-class-circa
I don't recall where I got this Master Class recording of Bob Marcellus. I didn't get it from Bob and I wasn't at his class. It could have been from my friend Greg Smith who also makes mouthpieces and plays with the Chicago Sym. He was a student of Bob's and they were good friends, however I can't be sure if it was Greg.
It's a long recording, but it talks about tonguing, slurring the basics, pretty much everything you need to know to become a decent player. I have a feeling your problems are with your embouchure in general, including your tongue placement and when your tongue hits the reed.
I'm not passing any judgement here, because I can't see whats going on.
Are you adjusting your reeds at all? Has your mouthpiece been exposed to heat, causing it to perhaps warp? Such as washing it in hot water? The cane can be collapsing on you, for several reasons, including bad quality. The reeds may be too soft for the MP. (mouthpiece) Oh, by the way, I'm for adjusting reeds. I think it's a must to learn how. I actually made my own reeds for several years. It was kind of fun. With all of the reeds available on the market I don't see a reason for it anymore.
If interested send your mouthpiece to me and I can check the facing and see if it's balanced. If it's off I'll adjust it at no charge. We need to get you playing and not fighting your horn. I'll send a few samples of great quality reeds. If these quality reeds stick to the mouthpiece it's surely an embouchure problem. So we can kind of start ruling out the possibilities and get you playing and having fun with music. I did teach college for a year and hated it. However if you wish to video yourself playing I'll take a look at it. Do a quality video, closeups, include your fingers during part of it. Nothing full length.
You can also try playing with a double lip embouchure. If your lips hurt after a maybe 5 minutes you are probably biting too hard. However the placement of the mouthpiece in your mouth must be firm. There's a fine line here from biting, tonguing hard, the placement of the tongue, and the mouthpiece not moving in your mouth. Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2015-12-15 15:48)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-16 02:08
These are all new reeds with only 9 playings of 5-10 minutes. Have had no modifications, only polishing the back side on paper and soaking 3-5 minutes before short play. Never was too clear on mouth position and Im not sure the reed is actually closing but just feels like it. It is improving and I think I am changing the mouth position rather than trying to keep it steady. Today using Rico Mitchell Lurie Premium 2.5 and working on C5 - C6. I find when go to upper register I have to adjust mouth a little. Almost sure it is an embouchure problem. Plan to watch some videos to get some more tips on high notes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2015-12-16 04:17
That is a very soft reed for a M13 - try a Vandoren Blue box #3.0 or 3.5.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-16 07:11
Many of us are of the belief that one introduces moisture to a new reed in a controlled and rationed fashion over several courses of playing and resting it.
That same discipline applies to its initial play: for short intervals at first, building up.
Consider eliminating this water bath as an additional step to follow, in addition to other things mentioned here.
Water breaks down the strands that hold wood together. When it dries, the strand's bonds are restored, minus the wear and tear of the wood vibrating 1000s of times during play. Heated water multiplies the effect: explaining why woodworkers steam wood to bend it. Yes, some reed moisture is necessary, but a lot, as in soaking the thing, can be counterproductive to the reed's response.
You may be softening your reeds against what I already described as a very small space between the reed and your model mouthpiece's relatively long rails, to the point where too much contact between the two is preventing the tip vibration necessary for sound.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-12-16 09:06
Be sure to listen to the Marcellus Master class I posted for you.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-16 09:42
Thank you. I located it and will listen to it tomorrow.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-16 09:56
I do play with double lip and maybe the reeds are too soft or too wet. MP is fairly new. and I have just started playing in upper register whereas before only the lower register except for a note or two, and it feels different playing in upper register.If I have trouble with reed in clarion it is good in lower.
I have some 3 reeds also and will try them and compare.
I am learning to adjust reeds but not on the newer ones. Mostly the older ones that have issues and play poorly. Try not to adjust just to be doing it.
Maybe the mouthpiece is better with 3 reedsthan 2 or 2.5 in the upper registers.Thanks for all the suggestions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-12-16 10:02
Dave, though I hesitate to disagree, my experience runs counter to what you say about water and reeds. I probably wet my reeds more than most people. Before practice, I put the reed in a cup of water, submersing it initially to get the butt wet to facilitate absorption. I leave it floating there at least long enough to remove any tip crinkle, maybe 10 minutes, but if I get distracted by email or posting on some crazy bb, well the reed may sit in there a half hour or more. It plays fine right off. After practice I wash the reed in very warm water, using my own special brush.
The reed I currently practice on for 3-4 hours daily gets this treatment every day. I'm certain I started practicing with it before the past summer's community band season, and that began in April. That's at least 7 months, 3-4 hours per day. It played as well today as it ever did.
Cane is not typical wood. It grows in the wettest environments in the world. It thrives there. It's capable of absorbing water repeatedly for long periods without damage, provided no bacteria or other decaying agents infect it. Cane is designed to contain & convey water. I suspect it can withstand almost unlimited cycles of soaking and drying. I don't think water alone damages the fibers. I also don't think that saliva digests it. Maybe vibration damages it: it's logical to think so, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know that.
I've accidentally left a reed in a cup of water for over 24 hours. I didn't play it immediately upon discovery (it was my "concert" reed, not a practice reed), so I set it out to dry, but the next day I tried it and it played fine, like nothing unusual had occurred.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-12-16 17:37
Phillip-by all means work in a way that's best for you regarding a reed's exposure to water, independent of my generalized findings or what many consider best practices regarding the amount and timing of new reed hydration and use.
Many of us though, as indicated, are very careful, especially initially, with the amount of either water or play time we'll give a new reed.
I certainly agree with washing off a reed after use: removing our saliva and its digestive properties from the reed and prematurely aging it.
Cane, as Mother Nature designed and purposed it certainly has its exposure to water not simply okay, but necessary---on this I agree. But best practices regarding mankind's repurposing of this substance for music production through its vibration on clarinets, many believe, follows a different water exposure paradigm. I too agree, as does science that water alone doesn't directly damage the reed's fibers.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/wood/water_effect.php
Intead, it merely forms a temporary chemical bond with the hydrogen on cellulose's fibers, loostening these bonds and making the reed more plyable.
Drying of the cane reverses that process, and strength is restored, minus chemical and physical wear and tear from playing it--saliva and the reed's vibration taking their permanent toll on the reed respectfully, and the warpage related stresses placed on some reeds as a result of rehydration.
Many of us even expose our reeds to humidity in storage to minimize these transitions--believing they too take their toll, if not also delay the time it takes for a dry reed to rehydrate and become playable. As mentioned, this rehydration often causes physical stresses to the reed as it first warps and then flattens out, as certain parts of the reed absorb water faster than others given the variability of cane, causing this warpage.
Agreed, there are anecdotes of that reed for which water and other abuses (e.g. keeping it on the mouthpiece, never taking care of it) never stopped it. They are our "Winston Churchill" reeds that metaphorically "smoke, drank, and ate carelessly" and lived until 90 anyway. But best reed practices deal with what maximizes an overall reed population's longevity.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-12-17 20:53
Dave, thank you for the interesting link. It leaves me more curious than less, but thanks still. As you related, it describes how adding water replaces hydrogen-cellulose bonds with hydrogen-water bonds, reducing the connection between cellulose fibers, which reduces the stiffness of the wood. In addition, the fibers swell with added water.
It would be interesting to perform the stiffness & strength measurements on cane, and repeat them on the same samples for both wet and dry conditions through repeated cycles of wetting and drying. I wonder if on every drying, a) the cellulose bonds return to their original strength, and b) if the fibers contract to their original configuration. If not, then it would establish that repeated water cycles do change cane over time, and it might reliably indicate how fast.
My seven month reed is not unusual in my experience. It is typical.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
