 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: reedfriendly
Date: 2015-11-26 01:37
Frankly, I'm stumped.
The pseudo-Rennaissance of Chinese stencilers coming into their own has led to a high volume of decent intermediate stock at decent prices for many woodwind and brass instruments. Even oddities such as sopranino saxophones can be had at pedestrian prices with only requisite quirks.
That said, at least for major manufacturers, I'm coming up with nothing but crickets when it comes to A clarinets.
There's the E11, but I hate the fit and finish of those instruments. A wood that looks like it was painted with motor oil, soft keys, yucky, response, poor longevity.
Bliss had a great thing going... still does! Bakun has some nice student clarinets. Buffet has an ok thing going with the E12F but no A there. The fate of Leblanc makes me cry into my pillow. They offered almost every one of their step up models in A. And like everything else 15 years ago, their pro models were actually affordable.
Are there ANY other options out there under 2k besides the E11?
I'm also willing to entertain other new student Bb's that i might not have heard of, as well as a properly made Eb below 2k. Any and all responses, thank you in advance.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-11-26 01:54
If I had need for an A clarinet (but I have a fabulous A now) I would call Tom Ridenour. One of my B-flat clarinets is the Ridenour Libertas, and it is a Marvelous instrument. Fit and finish is wonderful, intonation is spot-on, a buttery warm and dark tone, yet able to power through an ensemble. I have friends who play his A, and they sound great, and also love the horn! Brand new, from the Ridenours - a totally professional clarinet (Tom designed the Leblanc Concerto and Opus clarinets, and these are better!) for under $2,000! Call Tom 1-888-258-7845 you will NOT be sorry, ever!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2015-11-26 01:57
Ridenour's 575A Lyrique clarinet is $1,895. While it is a "Chinese hard rubber" clarinet, it's finished personally by Tom Ridenour - who designed the Leblanc Concerto and Opus clarinets back in the early 90's.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/lyrique-575-a-clarinet.html
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Author: reedfriendly
Date: 2015-11-26 02:09
" While it is a "Chinese hard rubber" clarinet, it's finished personally by Tom Ridenour - who designed the Leblanc Concerto and Opus clarinets back in the early 90's."
I get that. My main issue is it's hard to convince a school system or a donor why they should spend nearly 2k on a clarinet that isn't wood. If you get a Bliss clarinet, you get beautiful wood, silver plated keys, a pleasing aesthetic, PLUS it plays like what you paid for. Most of my horns are years old and look it and I don't mind, but looks and presentation matter to school boards and parents, like it or not.
Plus, I've tried the Ridenour clarinets at his booth on multiple occasions, and they didn't really appeal to me. Keywork did *not* feel secure, projection seemed flat... I *did* really like his C clarinet, but when I tried the bass, the flex in the motion of the extension keys was really scary.
I am willing to be critical of my own impressions, and I already have at least 2 glowing reviews in your comments to encourage me to reconsider. So if that's the choice I'm left with, I'll certainly give him a call and let him answer my concerns.
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2015-11-26 02:42
Nearly all intermediate level oboes are made of plastic/resin. While they have more intricate keywork mechanisms, they buy plastic because of the cost and value compared to wood.
Just a thought.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-11-26 03:21
Plastic oboes are more costly for the makers to produce and you'll rarely ever see plastic intermediate models. Even plastic beginner model oboes are less numerous compared to wooden ones - there are some, but specialist oboe makers tend to make the majority of their oboes in wood or wood with a plastic lined bore. Plastic top joints are optional for those who live in a less than favourable climate, wooden top joints with sleeved bores and bushed toneholes will reduce the likelihood of splitting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2015-11-26 06:08
I misspoke. My ex-wife once had an oboe from her high school in her possession after leaving the school. It was a Selmer 122F intermediate oboe, and I could've sworn it was a plastic model. I just looked up that model new on Woodwind & Brasswind, and it states it's made out of grenadilla wood.
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Author: reedfriendly
Date: 2015-11-26 07:33
Funny thing is though, most oboe players would swear against wood student oboes. The Fox 330, a $2k+ instrument, is full conservatory, silver-key but all plastic. Oboes are so much more susceptible to cracks than clarinets, so this makes sense. Our school currently owns one wood intermediate oboe, probably the same Selmer, and it has been cracked once in its life, and fixed somewhat poorly.
So I'm able to play both sides of this fence here. I'm not against composite instruments in general, I just haven't liked this one in particular. :p Which stinks, because I do want to like it! and the sound is not the issue. For what the Ridenour costs I would want to see:
-A smoother finish to the rubber, like a mouthpiece
-Stronger, better quality keywork, and silver plated
-A more refined engraving
The Fox 330, by contrast, excels in all of these areas.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-11-26 07:41
So, now it is for a school system. Shouldn't matter. Sounds like you really want somebody to tell you: "Why, YES! You're so right! The Bliss is the BEST!"
Sorry, you won't hear that from me. The Bliss is an okay intermediate instrument, and that is all it will ever be. A pretty looking student horn. I do have some friends that purchased a Bliss for a second "road" horn. They sound quite pedestrian to me. Sorry.
I personally like the flat finish of the Ridenour. Looks and feels better. You want shiney? Go for a plastic horn. Oh, I forgot - no plastic A clarinets out there, really. Also - a hard rubber instrument cannot have silver or silver-plated keys. The chemical reaction would blacken the keys in quick fashion.
Have you really tested the new A clarinet?
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
Post Edited (2015-11-26 07:48)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2015-11-26 10:21
I have a Ridenour A clarinet in my school program, and it is loaned out 100% of the time to students. The intonation is stellar, and it has held up very reliably. I have some issue with the tone quality on some of the notes (there are some sacrifices made so that it is very in tune), and the keywork doesn't feel quite as nice as a Buffet or Yamaha, but for the price I paid I'm not going to dismiss it.
Two of my students have Buffet E-11's with upgraded barrels that they purchased well under MSRP, and those have served well. At the time, they were not ready to spend $4000+ on a clarinet that would not be played as frequently as their Bb, so it made sense.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-11-26 16:56
I just noticed Yamaha no longer offer an intermediate level A clarinet anymore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-11-26 17:21
Perhaps it may be of interest what is offered by German mail order company Thomann as lowest priced Boehm- A- clarinets:
(Sorry, attachment didn't work. I try again)
Post Edited (2015-11-26 17:26)
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Author: reedfriendly
Date: 2015-11-26 17:47
Quote:
So, now it is for a school system. Shouldn't matter. Sounds like you really want somebody to tell you: "Why, YES! You're so right! The Bliss is the BEST!"
Sorry, you won't hear that from me. The Bliss is an okay intermediate instrument, and that is all it will ever be. A pretty looking student horn. I do have some friends that purchased a Bliss for a second "road" horn. They sound quite pedestrian to me. Sorry. [\quote]
"The Bliss is an ok intermediate instrument." We're in agreement here. I'm not saying that I need everything to be perfect all the time. What I'm saying is that non-musical factors can be important to the people with the purse strings when they approve or deny a line-item or a school bid, and I need to be sensitive to all of that in order to actually get the instrument in the kid's hands. I think the Bliss excels in these areas, and is not-half-bad as a player. Also, know that I am referring to the wood instrument, as the plastic isn't even offered anymore.
From everything I'm hearing in this thread, I've actually had a bit of a turnaround of opinion on the Ridenour A. I still wish it looked better, and I wish I'd have liked in the exhibit hall, but who knows maybe I was in a stuffy corner or I had a bad reed or something. I'm human and I'm willing to give it another shot.
My bigger gripe than with Ridenour is the fact that he has to have a cornered marked at all. The E12F and the Bliss should both be offered in A, The YCL-450 is so good that Yamaha should be able to make a killing offering a version in A, RIP Leblanc, etc. Crickets. OH and the Selmer Artys A is 2300 Euros which should come to south of 3k stateside, but they won't sell it in the US apparently.
At this point, my intention is to tout the durable nature of the Ridenour on my write-up and include the E11 as an alternative. We need so much else that I doubt I would be able to get a pro set approved, and this is a school that has grown fast; last year was the first time in years we had more than 15 kids at solo and ensemble; this year we'll have about 120. Next year we'll program our first full symphony. So any instrument these kids get, with the proper set-up, will be a positive musical experience for them and I'll be thankful for it.
Thanks to all for the spirited discussion, and happy Thanksgiving!
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-11-26 20:12
I can understand the way school systems work. I have many band director friends, and their horror stories could fill a library. Recently I was approached by the district for recommendations on clarinets, as were several other players and repair facilities in the area. In a unusual show of unity, we recommended a "pecking order" of brand and model preference. The purchase order was prepared with the price point determined, and the final decision was on one of the top Jupiter Clarinets. They were going for a large quantity, about 100 clarinets. Unfortunately, the School Board allowed a "substitute" clause in the contract, and the California Distributor made the decision to substitute some Chinese off-brand as an equal. Well, what a disaster! Keys that bend when you look at them!
So, I understand dealing with School Boards. Could be great, could be a nightmare.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-11-26 21:29
" While it is a "Chinese hard rubber" clarinet, it's finished personally by Tom Ridenour - who designed the Leblanc Concerto and Opus clarinets back in the early 90's."
I get that. My main issue is it's hard to convince a school system or a donor why they should spend nearly 2k on a clarinet that isn't wood.
==========
My answer--with no conflict of interest.
1) The Chinese don't make good or bad products. They make products that are worth what you pay for them, whether that's a lot of 10,000 party sunglasses that by design fall apart in 24 hours, or a state of the art highly reliable satellite.
2) If purchasing domestic product is the concern I appreciate that. But labor costs will translate into less clarinet for the money. I'm not offering opinion on that being good or bad, just stating the economics most of us already realize.
3) The notion that wood clarinets are better than plastic, on materials alone is hogwash. The quality of a clarinet comes in its workmanship far more than whether than workmanship was done in wood, plastic or rubber. Historically, with plastic being a cheaper material, it was chosen by the low budget makers, who spent less time and care making (quality) instruments so as to keep cost low. Plastic then got associated, unfairly, with lack of quality.
4) Backun makes a fine plastic (excuse me: cough, a "proprietary synthetic material") clarinet in the Alpha
http://backunmusical.com/collections/clarinets/products/alpha-bb-clarinet.
In fairness to fact, I don't believe its made in the OP's desired "A" pitch.
5) The notion that wood is an optimal material to make clarinets out of is hogwash. It was originally chosen (before the days of plastic) for its low cost to machine--not the quality of sound produced by it.
6) Ridenour clarinets, excellent and reasonably priced are made in hard rubber...which I consider the single best material to make a clarinet out of today, even if wood were cheaper. It's dimensionally stable, doesn't crack, and can be played outdoors, in changing humdity and temperature. The craftmanship's and ruggedness is first rate, and the pitch and sound are fabulous.
7) Wood clarinets are going away, getting more expensive, and getting worse. We are running out of the African Blackwood, from which most wood clarinets are made, and finding quality wood billets comes at much higher price than has been historically the case. This isn't my opinion, its simple math. When pressed, Buffet themselves will tell you that you have to today buy a Prestige model to get the wood of and 1950's R13. Meanwhile, today's R13 is significantly more expensive in real dollars than in the day when it was made of better wood.
I own a vintage R13 "A." I love it. I'm no king, but I could afford to replace it. And yet I choose to play a Ridenour hard rubber Chinese made A clarinet that's only intermediately priced, but professional in quality
Please, get out of your head that plastic or hard rubber are inferior materials to make a clarinet out of. They are not. They are superior, especially in today's environment of slim pickings for wood. Generally speaking, pros play the best instruments they are otherwise compensated to play. Don't categorically go by their choices.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-11-26 21:34
The Yamaha 650 A is a pre-professional instrument which will kick the crap out of pretty much every r13 out of the box. They're only offered new in Europe though.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-11-26 22:01
Indeed. But I didn't see reedfriendly make the claim that wood is a superior material. The general perception, though (especially amongst pros), is that this is the case.
Why? Because there are almost no professional-level instruments being made in hard rubber. I can only defer to those who have tried them, but let's say the Ridenours are. So who else makes them? Buffet? Nope. Selmer? Nope. Yamaha? Nope. Backun? Nope (but you can spend 3x the money on super-duper matched wood, limited edition horns). Anybody else? Nope. Is making hard-rubber horns with exactly the same quality within their power? Absolutely.
Why don't they? Because the manufacturers themselves actively reinforce the belief that wood is superior.
Why didn't Buffet launch a hard-rubber product in the Greenline? They don't want to lose money by selling a hard-rubber alternative for half the cost. They came up with the space-age grenadilla composite material that's "just as good" as wood. And golly, the "let's mix sawdust with epoxy" technology ends up costing just as much! Who'da thunk???
So we have the Ridenours. And the 3x+ as much Buffets.
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2015-11-26 22:10
"Please, get out of your head that plastic or hard rubber are inferior materials to make a clarinet out of. They are not. They are superior, especially in today's environment of slim pickings for wood. Generally speaking, pros play the best instruments they are otherwise compensated to play. Don't categorically go by their choices."
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To be fair, I think he's more concerned about how the proposal would be considered by those who make the buying decisions.
If I were creating your proposal, I would use an excel spreadsheet and compare 3 kinds of "A" clarinets on one page.
Use 4 columns: 1 column for features and 1 column for each of the 3 clarinets to consider.
Within the features column, bring out any additional considerations you want them to consider when making the purchase decision - durability, consistency, longevity, supply, etc. Be fair on each point and introduce ALL the points you want them to consider when making the decision... and they should agree with you and your recommendation.
Your recommendation should be filled and outlined in "green" (as in 'go').
The recommendation you don't endorse would be outlined in "red" or pink (as in 'stop').
Anything in between can be in neutral colors, such as yellow or blue.
Then, when you present your purchasing recommendation, it should be quite clear and obvious that you are looking out for their best interest, not just looking for the "perceived" best deal.
Just my thoughts.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-11-26 22:56
Unless I'm going blind or completely stupid, I can't for the life of me see the YCL-650 A clarinet listed in any of the major woodwind specialsts websites in the UK - not even on Yamaha's own website either:
http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical-instruments/winds/clarinets/a-clarinets/
So the YCL-CX A clarinet is the only entry level pro model A clarinet they offer now and nothing lower down the lineup than that one. I can't even find any mention of the YCL-650A by looking up discontinued models and parts lists published by Yamaha - it's as though it never existed.
The most recent listing I do have of the YCL-650A is in a John Myatt catalogue from 2007.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-11-27 00:10
Yep, I looked around for an A version of the YCL-650 a few months ago here in the states, with no luck. Pity, considering how good the Bb version is.
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