 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nron
Date: 2015-11-20 04:18
Hello all!
I recently picked up a Buffet R13 clarinet for a decent price. All of it is great and it is a pleasure to play and all that. However, I noticed that my bell and and barrel have only the buffet crampon made in france markings on them and noting else. The whole package looks legitimate to me though - not some kind of frakein clarinet. I'm posting today to see if anyone else's clarinets are marked like mine, unmarked bell and barrel.
My clarinet's serial number puts its manufacture date in 1990
thanks for the help!
Nick
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2015-11-20 04:52
A lot of r13's only have buffet symbols on them, so much so that I thought r13's with r13 marked on them were fake for the longest time
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-11-20 05:21
The Buffet barrels and bells have never had serial numbers on them (at least not in past 80+ years). For about 20 years the barrels and bells carry an identifier with barrel having length and later also a model identifier e.g. R13. The Bells usually show something like R B (Bb) or R A (A). AT one point they used to put the catalog numbers instead.
The Main body of the R13 has never carried an "R13" logo whereas the other e.g. RC Festival Prestige etc do show their data.
So for 1990 date the Buffet logo would be the only marking on barrel and bell.
FWIW in early 1990s I lobbied B&H, then owners of Buffet, to include identification marks to help prevent the inadvertent mixing up of incorrect body parts in shops etc. I think I finally convinced them that probably a significant number of players ended up with RCs and R13s fitted with the wrong parts.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-11-20 14:50
The only few clarinets I've seen with serial numbered barrels and bells are a set of Selmer Series 9* that I own where every section carries a serial number for that instrument and the barrels, top joints and bells are also marked A or Bb. But that's a rare thing and also seen on some Boosey&Co, or Hawkes&Sons instruments - probably on Louis clarinets as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-11-20 20:29
Hawkes &Sons certainly marked all parts with serial in 1st quarter of 20th century at least on their top models.
I have a Hawkes clarinet circa 1925/30 where every joint INCLUDING mouthpiece is serial numbered. Fortunately the original mouthpiece has survived and was with the instrument when I bought it.
Does anyone have even a half decent list of Hawkes&Sons serial numbers?
I own several of their clarinets and bassoons and have never been able to definitively date them.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2015-11-20 22:41
No idea if this is helpfull at all - I have a PDF (do a google search for BH_archive_detailed_handlist )
There is a brief mention of Hawkes instruments from the plating book. Quote below:
Lists instruments, instrument numbers (serial number), ticket number, order number, S plate/remarks and a date. Order shown is in date of electroplating, brasswind instruments (silver plating), and woodwind (chromium, silver and gold plating), Jun 1928 - Dec 1931. Book begins with serial number 57217 in June 1928 and concludes with 62452 in October 1931; serial numbers run roughly but not entirely sequentially. Also includes ‘Empire’ model instruments, which appear to have a separate serial number sequence: 100001 was entered in August 1928, 101235 entered in October 1931. This book also includes some Boosey & Co. instruments.
Also there is reference elswhere that states:
The merger of Boosey & Co. operations with those of Hawkes & Son took place relatively quickly once the new company had been created in 1930. Hawkes & Son had in 1924-25 built the spacious factory at Deansbrook Road, Edgware, which could accommodate the combined manufacturing operation. The former Boosey manufacturing production was transferred from Frederick Mews, Stanhope Place, Marble Arch, to Edgware in the period
1931-32, which continued as the main Boosey & Hawkes plant until 2001. Management and sales were concentrated at the former headquarters and saleroom of Boosey & Co. at 295 Regent Street, although the Hawkes premises in Denman Street continued as repair shop for some time. The Hawkes & Son sequences of serial numbers were discontinued, the Boosey & Co sequence for brass instruments was continued, and indeed is still being used. Demand for existing successful models (of mouthpieces as well as instruments) from both firms continued to be satisfied for some time, a consolidated range of models, mostly based on Boosey & Co. designs, being established in the 1930s (see Appendix A). On 1 January 1933 the remaining unfinished Hawkes & Son instruments were given
Boosey & Hawkes serial numbers. Finally, on 5 January 1943 the last nineteen items of old Hawkes & Son stock were renumbered.
This can be found by google search HBSJ_2003_JL01_003_Myers
Chris
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-11-21 00:33
Norman: regarding Hawkes serial numbers, Ramon Wodkowski told me he had seen the Hawkes ledgers at one point. I have a Hawkes pair numbers 104xx & 108xx and Ramon dated these to 1924. From the helpful PDF Chris J pointed out, Boosey were putting out around 600 reed instruments per year at that time, so it's a fair guess that Hawkes were doing something similar. So on that basis I'd put e.g. Hawkes 10,000 at mid-1923, and one would expect the last pre-merger instruments from 1930 to be about 14,200.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-11-21 00:49
On closer inspection of Chris J's PDF, I found that there is some info for Hawkes there as well: woodwind serials 7664-15631 cover 5 Mar 1921 – 17 Feb 1931. So that's about 800 per year; my guess of 600 wasn't too far off. With that and the confirmation that 104xx & 108xx are 1924, I think you can put a year to most Hawkes clarinets with some confidence.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-11-21 04:14
Chris and John,
that info is most helpful. Have printed down and now need to digest.
One notable coincidence is that the serial numbers of one clarinet and two bassoons I have all start 131XX so were not only all made in about 1928/29 but all probably made within months of each other.
I recall Ramon telling me that the B&H clarinet range was based on the Boosey product range, however it is interesting to note that the Hawkes clarinet above has an identical bore to the 1010 and the (original identically numbered) mouthpiece has exactly the same sized and parallel bore as the 1010 mouthpiece.
Also the bassoons, whose serials numbers are less than 20 apart, have fundamentally different patterns, one being similar to the British/Mahillon style and the other looking almost identical to a Buffet but with more advanced features in that the bores of butt section are totally separated and connected by a Heckel like metal butt U-tube. This I believe is something Buffet only adopted in the past 10-20 years.
Norman
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Author: PaulIsaac
Date: 2015-11-21 05:02
Just in reply to nron's original query - nron I play a 1962 R13 that is marked just as you describe. There is no serial number on the barrel or bell, just the Buffet logo and words as you have stated.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-11-21 05:12
" probably on Louis clarinets as well.
Chris."
I have a Louis clarinet, but it's only numbered on the upper and lower joints. The barrel in unmarked and the bell is only marked with Louis & Co, Chelsea, London.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-11-21 06:13
The funny thing with the set of consecutively numbered V series Selmer Series 9* clarinets I have (from 1967) is shortly after I bought them, the previous owner emailed me in a panic thinking he forgot to send the bell for the A. So he sent it out to me along with a Cundy Bettony A clarinet lower joint. Turns out he had an extra bell that was made specially for the A clarinet, only this one didn't have the export stamp on it - just the Selmer logo and 'A' above it.
But it too carries the serial number of the A clarinet stamped on the back of the socket, so maybe it was rejected for some reason - only I can't honestly see why as the wood is good on it with no cracks or flaws. Maybe Gino Cioffi wanted them both with the extra info on the bell as this set were made specially for him, so maybe somewhere there's an extra Bb bell languishing in a drawer or cupboard somewhere with just the Selmer logo and 'Bb' above it, with the serial number on the back.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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