 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-11-04 01:17
I've written here seeking advice about biting, and have made a huge improvement. Recently however I realized something. I like a very focused, clean sound with a bit of edge. I can play with my jaw down using my embouchure now, but I don't get the sound I like. It's dark and reedy. This seems to have been true of a several mouthpieces. When I apply more jaw pressure the sound focuses the way I like. It's not choked, and I get more power and projection. However, I can't bite because it tears my lip up. I'm wondering if what I want is a more resistant set-up, with a medium to short lay (or perhaps a larger baffle). I think I want a close tip. I'm playing a close tip, long lay, and deep baffle. I would also like something with a bore that matches my R13.
I don't have anywhere to go to try a bunch.
Any thoughts?
- Matthew Simington
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-11-04 06:46
What mouthpieces and facings have you tried thus far? Which of them comes closest to the ideal you're looking for? Also, what ligatures have you tried?
Post Edited (2015-11-04 06:56)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-11-04 06:57
First, a deep baffle, if it's really deep, mitigates against the sound you're describing. A deeper baffle tends to cover the sound a little and maybe broaden it - most players will say it "darkens" the tone (and, not incidentally, tends to flatten the pitch). Otherwise, what you describe is very attainable with a long, close facing or even a little more of a medium curve. The mouthpiece needs to work with a certain amount of strength in the heart of the reed, but you can free the sides along the rails to get more vibrancy and avoid stuffiness.
It's hard to know what to say about jaw pressure. If you like the sound, you aren't closing the reed, and the pressure you're using is comfortable, then it probably isn't too much. If the reed closes, sounds constricted instead of just focused, lacks ring and you get tired quickly from the effort, then you're using too much pressure. If that's what is required to make your setup play, then it isn't responsive enough.
IMO control of the reed comes from a combination of active movement of air and some amount of pressure around the mouthpiece, applying light force evenly around the entire curved surface of the reed. With no pressure, the reed flaps and loses pitch and focus. With too much, its vibration is choked off and your ability to react subtly to register and pitch demands is limited. My teachers - who were all to one degree or another in the Bonade line, talked about using the least amount amount of pressure necessary to focus the sound.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-04 18:21
Matt, write to me at savagesax@aol.com and I will give you my home number phone number.
You may be pretty confused here and you could spend thousands and thousands of dollars looking for the right setup. You've asked some great questions, but they really can't be answered, because so many great players use short facings, long facings, tip openings wider than 120 mm and more and closer than 85 mm. These are just with 2 major symphonies, but I can't disclose their names, nor the symphonies.
If you decide not to send an email I'd say to pick up a Vandoren M13, an M15 and an M30. These are good standard mouthpieces and probably use Vandoren reeds. You will develop a pretty decent sound and after some experience playing on them maybe look around for a custom mouthpiece maker and or refacer. If you want a very open mouthpiece try the Vandoren B40. That has a tip opening of around 120. The M13 is about 101. The M30's are about 120 with a long facing.
I'd say to give yourself a year of trial. During this time play a lot of long tones to get the feel of the mouthpieces, looking for the limits of the mouthpieces in all of the registers.
This may help with adjusting the problems with jaw pressure. A lot has been talked about practicing for a few minutes a day using a double lip. I think it's a good idea to help figure out the correct pressure, but very few players use double lip all of the time.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-11-04 20:16
Matt,
I think Bob Bernardo's specific advice is right on the money. Vandoren M13, M13 Lyre (about 1.02 mm tip) and Vandoren M15 are all easy to control and therefore discourage biting. All three of these mouthpieces have a nice blend of bright and dark timbre that is well-centered. The M30, though, is more open and has somewhat thicker rails, all of which might make it harder for you to get the well-centered, resonant sound you are looking for. (The M30 is deliberatly designed for a slightly more covered, darker sound). Vandoren traditional reeds also tend to favor projection and power in the sound. Some good ligatures to pair with the mouthpieces would be the silver or gold BG Duo. the Peter Spriggs, and the Bonade inverted model. These all favor center and projection in the tone.
Lerning to play at least for short periods double lip, also--as Mr Bernardo says--is a sure-fire way to stop biting, unless your upper lip is just too short for double lip. (Some top players like Tony Pay and Mitchell Lurie couldn't play double lip for this reason.)
After you have developed a flexible, non-bighting embouchure is the time to decide if you want to go for a more open or closer facing than the M13, M13L. or M15. (For example Clarke Fobes 0.96 mm or the Vandoren B40 or B40 lyre).
Post Edited (2015-11-04 20:45)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-05 05:13
Thanks seabreeze for your nice comments.
I've played with a double lip since before going to high school at Interlochen Arts Academy. I had braces and the vibration of the mouthpiece hurt the top teeth when playing so I went to double lip not knowing anything about it! It stopped the pain from the vibration of the mouthpiece! There's still a lot of really fine players using a double lip embouchure.
One player that amazes me is John Yeh with Chicago. He uses a B40 Vandoren mouthpiece, the tip is about 120 or so, very open, and 5 strength reeds, with a double lip. I don't know how he does it. Shark jaws I guess and as we all know he sounds so great.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2015-11-05 12:43
wow Bob, John Yeh's setup sounds insane! I have a B40, the hardest I've ever gone with that is a 3.5 reeds.
I always like it though when top professionals are using a plain old £80 Vandoren - just shows that you can sound amazing with the kind of mouthpiece that students would be upgrading to, without having to spend £300 on one of the "boutique" ones. The priciest mouthpiece may not make you sound much better, or feel right for you.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2015-11-05 21:18
These are all really good & knowledgeable suggestions, and I have an additional one you might try before you invest in equipment, and that is dealing with your air and oral cavity shape.
First of all, there's a really good video on YouTube by Harvey Pittel, the classical sax guru, on "reverse coning." It's a way of shaping your internal oral cavity so as to focus your air without biting. I'm not going to try to restate it here because i never do the concept justice, just recommending you check it out & see what you think.
(this is not just an adjustment for sax, by the way--I believe Joe Allard taught something similar for all the single reeds, probably he's where Harvey Pittel got it in the first place.)
The other concept has to do with the focus and direction of your airstream, and the concept is "Make sure your air hits the baffle." It's a mental adjustment that (for me) has had definite audible results: you just mentally direct your air right at the baffle. (I was given this adjustment in a lesson, along with reverse coning, and the resulting sound was so good I thought "Did I just make that sound?? Really??" and my teacher replied, "Now THAT's a clarinet!")
You could try all of this stuff and tell right away if it works for you. Really active air and a focused oral cavity, I'm guessing, would clear up a lot of your objections to your non-biting sound (you hear this sometimes with doublers who may be brilliant on sax and flute, but have a kind of "dumb" sound on clarinet, like a 3rd-clarinet-high-school-band sound).
Maybe your air's fine already, I don't know. I'd start there and THEN go exploring all these mouthpiece & reed suggestions.
Edited to add: Joe Allard used to recommend no more pressure on the lower lip than on a pat of butter--i.e., not much at all. You do it all via active air and oral cavity shape. Hope that makes sense.
Post Edited (2015-11-05 21:21)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-07 13:40
Just a little more on the baffle.
Karl is on the money with the deep baffle being contrary to your concept. The deeper baffle is also less quick or more resistant. If you root around the Brad Behn website (I assume all this information is still there), he describes a "bounce back" effect with the air against the baffle and back onto the reed. The closer (straighter, shallower) baffle causes the air to bounce back onto the reed forcing it to vibrate faster (respond quicker).
The mouthpiece that I always associated with this affect is the Portnoy, but just look at the mouthpieces as you try them and make mental notes on which configuration plays with more of the bite you are looking for.
....................Paul Aviles
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