 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-11-02 21:56
Been thinking about it and everyone has their preference. But I'd like to hear just a nice discussion as to which you prefer and why.
Myself? I lean towards freeblowing. I CAN play a resistant setup, and right now one of my clarinets that play (my outdoor one) is VERY resistant, but I can make it work. I just prefer to not to have to work hard.
I seem to see the advantages/disadvantages of both, and in different times of playing life. You would NEVER give a beginner a very resistant setup, because that would almost immediately discourage them. But I think a resistant setup can really help to develop some good breath support, and I think it can almost be used as a tool to help develop better support overall throughout the registers.
I don't want to have to work hard to play. But I also believe that some resistance really helps me control volume and pitch as I don't have to worry about "popping" in on a note too loud while also trying to maintain good breath support.
Just curious. I remember playing my setup against a friends and his was MUCH MUCH more resistant than mine. To the point where I was turning red trying to get air through the instrument (I looked and felt like a freakin' oboe player playing that thing!)
So what's YOUR preference?
US Army Japan Band
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-11-02 22:16
Alexi -
So, what IS your "outdoor" setup, vs your "indoor" one? Curious - as you are a professional in the Army Band.
I have a good friend, just retired, from the Air Force Band, in Washington DC, and he is a Buffet R13 - Greenline player, with a Greg Smith setup, a medium-lay Kaspar-style. So he has a rather small-resistance play on that, but a wonderful controlled sound.
My "outdoor" horn is a Ridenour Libertas, the others are an older Buffet R13 (1969), a couple very-well set-up Selmer Series 10's (1974 & 1976), a Selmer Centered Tone (1950's), and a 1959 Leblanc Dynamic H. All with Clark Fobes CWF mouthpieces, so - some moderate resistance, but wonderful results. Also use a Selmer 10G A clarinet, a Ridenour C clarinet, and a Buffet R13 E-flat with the Fobes mouthpiece.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-11-05 05:07
Quote:
Alexi -
So, what IS your "outdoor" setup, vs your "indoor" one? Curious - as you are a professional in the Army Band.
Depends from band to band. For the last couple bands, I've had the fortune of having my input heard when ordering clarinets so my current band, allotted 8 clarinets (four indoor clarinets, four outdoor clarinets) has a mixture of R13s, Festivals, and Toscas both in wood and greenline for them all.
My PERSONAL preference based on the ones I've played at bands is first a Tosca, and then a Festival. Right now I have a Tosca for indoor playing and an R13 Greenline for outdoors as the Festival needs to be overhauled (used many times in light drizzle and rain and it's just time for those pads to be replaced)
Throughout my career so far I've played on R13 Prestiges, Yamaha 650s, Toscas, Festivals, R13s, Leblanc Concertos, and even had the fortune of playing on a Patricola at one duty station!
Personal horns are Buffet Evette and Schaffer and a Ridenour. And I prefer my personal horns to pretty much anything I've played in the Army, but then again, I got to pick them and have had them tweaked by technicians.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-11-06 04:21
I am actually very curious on this as well. As I've progressed as a player, I've been lead to playing a very freeblowing setup, and applying as much control as I can. Before this however, I always thought that blowing like a truck (in a good manner) created a better sound. When ya'll play, does the clarinet respond generally immediately on say an open G? Or do you find you have to really push from the gut to the get the sound going?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-06 04:56
Exiawolf wrote:
> I always thought that blowing like a truck (in a good
> manner) created a better sound. When ya'll play, does the
> clarinet respond generally immediately on say an open G? Or do
> you find you have to really push from the gut to the get the
> sound going?
Truthfully, I'm not sure I understand what is meant here by "free-blowing" and "resistant." I play on a setup that consists of Selmer 10G clarinets (generally, I think, considered somewhat "resistant," at least by classical/symphonic standards, mouthpieces that are close tipped and medium long (currently 1.02 mm/17 mm) and reeds ranging from V.12 and 56 Rue #4-1/2 to VD Traditional #5. I'm currently experimenting with Steuer #4, which is their highest strength. I'm not sure if in theory that setup would be considered "resistant" with the reed strength I use, but in fact I adjust (or maybe customize) my reeds so that "blowing like a truck" is the farthest thing from the way I play, and an open G comes out immediately. The "push from the gut" is to maintain consistent air flow at the reed tip and not to "get the sound going." So, I guess before I could say much about free vs. resistant, I'd need to have a clearer frame of reference.
I've always felt that most players play on the kind of setups they use because that's what they learned to play and that's what they're comfortable with out of habit. I think initially you learn as an inexperienced student to make music on whatever you're using (for many of us, chosen with a teacher's help). I have experimented with a great many mouthpieces and reeds, and I always come back to something similar to where I started - the differences, which certainly exist and which justify the wandering, are far more subtle than a resistant vs. free-blowing one, whatever those terms represent as extreme ends of the spectrum of response.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-11-06 06:12
When I say free blowing or resistant, I think about backpressure as you play. If I try to move as much air through the horn as possible at a loud volume (play fff), am I working very hard to move that air and get that same volume? Is there a lot of back pressure, or is the air going through easily. Consider the difference in air pressure and backpressure when blowing through a drinking straw vs blowing through a coffee stirrer.
For horns that are characteristically one or the other, consider playing a stereotypical buffet r13 "A" clarinet, vs a a Selmer Bundy Bb clarinet. A clarinets are generally considered to be more resistant requiring greater air pressure than a Selmer Bundy would require to play at the same dynamic......stereotypically.....NOT saying it's the case all the time....!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-06 06:36
sfalexi wrote:
> Consider the difference in air pressure and backpressure when
> blowing through a drinking straw vs blowing through a coffee
> stirrer.
>
Well, I'm not sure this is much clearer for me, since both offer a good deal of resistance over what you would feel while blowing through a paper towel core. Obviously, the less air will travel through an opening, the longer the same volume of air will last, so one clear advantage to a setup that allows less air to pass through is that you can play longer phrases on a single breath. Oboists can generally play longer on a breath (think of the solos in the 2nd movement of Schubert's "Unfinished") than clarinetists or flutists because the aperture between the two reeds is so small.
I think a good player *can* get the kind of sound he wants from almost any reasonably standard piece of equipment, whether a B45 or an AG P, with a reed that's chosen and adjusted to respond comfortably. And I think that it's very difficult to get a full sound and clear articulation out of any mouthpiece if reeds aren't adjusted to vibrate cleanly. Fuzz, airiness and sluggish staccato can happen on any mouthpiece if you use reeds that are prone to produce them. So, for me it's less a question of resistant/free as it is responsive/stuffy.
We may be talking past each other about different phenomena and different sensations.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-07 13:25
For the most part I think we must be referring to the result we get from the mouthpiece/reed combination.
With that in mind, I would want the most responsive set-up that is possible. The reason for that is to have the greatest control over the softest possible sounds and the ability to get there fast. If the mouthpiece/reed represents any obstacle then you could easily find yourself with "no sound" when going for something particularly subtle.
Control is key!
With that said I do recall trying the mid-line Backuns at a Texas Music Educators conference shortly after they first came out. I just popped my mouthpiece on a couple of the displayed horns and could not stand them because the experience was one of a thin, weak, too quick to control feeling.
So matching things up to your horn is also important.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: soloartist13
Date: 2015-11-17 06:44
The problem oboists experience, though, is that they often have two much air left over in their lungs meaning they often have to take pauses to expel air. So a thinner opening for air isn't always a positive.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-17 14:27
Dear "soloartist13,"
You are looking at breathing incorrectly. The mouthpiece/reed doesn't determine how much air you use.......you do.
I know there are different approaches to "how much air to take in," but I prefer to take a full breath ALL THE TIME. At the end of the phrase you expel the remainder just before taking in a new full tank. That way there is NO guesswork (and you always have enough air).
We should all breath like oboists (in my opinion).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-17 17:41
Paul Aviles wrote:
> (and you
> always have enough air).
>
I wish!
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-18 01:46
Well............
I just mean there is none of that guessing game of "how much air do I need for blank."
Anyway, we had a recent discussion that brought up these phrasing marks in Langenus (was it?) where he marked breaths at very short intervals. His philosophy of phrasing included taking these micro pauses at very regular (but very specific) intervals to accentuate key moments of the phrase. The more I play with this idea the more I like it. Keep in mind the idea of FEWER/LONGER phrases applies to where you start and start musical thoughts as defined by dynamics, NOT where you breathe.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2015-11-18 14:38
I prefer resistance if it's in the mouthpiece. I found out it's the best for me if the clarinet itself is freeblowing, and I use a reletively resistant mouthpiece with a medium (3-3.5) reed. This way the instrument doesn't kick back, but there is enough resistance in the mouthpiece-reed setup to have good control over each register, in every dynamics. At least this is what works for me.
Mark
Post Edited (2015-11-18 16:30)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-19 01:51
I think it's a matter of how you play. In the 70's I was playing on a Selmer 9 Star and it had a large bore. For me I had trouble controlling it. I settled in on Buffet R13's with a Vandoren B45 mouthpiece.
A few years later I played on the Selmer 10 Series and loved it. The key design felt so good. I still went back to the Buffet R 13's. I wish Buffet could make their keys feel like the Selmers.
I just bought 2 new Buffets about a year ago. The workmanship is horrible. The horns leak badly. I don't like the Moenig barrels with the new Buffets, too resistant.
Once the leaks were fixed the horns are very nice. The "A" clarinet I think is the best horn I've ever played. I'm playing on my own mouthpiece with a long facing and #4 strength Steuer reeds. It's a pretty free playing mouthpiece with thinner rails compared to something like the Zinners, which can sometimes be stuffy due to the thick rails and the deep baffles.
Never played on the Yamaha's or the Backuns.
By the way, I will have a booth at the NAMM Convention in January, so stop by if anyone is going.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-11-19 17:29
I'm an amateur, but fwiw.... I prefer a moderate setup, not extreme one way or another, but I like a more resistant setup for classical music and a less-resistant setup for jazz. For jazz, I want to be able to bend the pitch easily. For classical music, I'm wary of bending the pitch by accident!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-19 17:40
Ha, Ha!
"Bending pitch by accident!" Boy, that was the story for me when I tried a more open mouthpiece set-up about three years ago. Timbre and pitch were so variable that I felt like I was walking a tight rope the whole time I played on that mouthpiece. I'll take those that are more like 1.00 mm open any day of the week! Control, Control, Control
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kel
Date: 2015-11-19 20:14
Resistant? Freeblowing? I'm looking for self-playing.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-11-21 23:22
@sonicbang, I think we are close on our philosophy, though I don't mind an overall resistant or overall free-blowing combination, I prefer the mouthpiece be at least as resistant as the clarinet, otherwise it is hard for me to control. YMMV as I am an amateur clarinet player/collector for fun. With better training and practice I might be able to learn the control, but see no reason to at this point...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-22 03:57
Dear "Kel,"
I think you think you are joking about the "self playing" set-up, but that is kinda what I am finding with the Viotto N1 mouthpiece I speak of in the "GERMAN MOUTHPIECE" thread.
Without any real embouchure effort of which to speak you can get some pretty amazing results with the German Viotto (and a 2 1/2 strength Vandoren White Master reed) on a French clarinet. What you need to consider though is that with a sound that is "native to the set-up," you cannot vary tone color very much nor the pitch as much as what you are used to. But I find this very intriguing.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-11-28 02:40
What is the typical source or cause of the resistance that you are referring to? Is it reed strength? Gap dimension between the reed and the mouthpiece? Mouthpiece facing curvature? Types of pads? Height of closed top keys above the holes? Or pad leakage?
When I've play tested clarinets (mail order or in a shop), excessive resistance was most often caused by leakage of some sort.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-11-30 08:04
My concept of a preferred has changed from "dark" to one that is clear, colorful and with a lot of presence. This has led me to using a set up that is more free blowing for me than what I first preferred using. I have found that a more brilliant (not necessarily bright) sound comes across better to an audience than one that is far more muted or dark. Especially since that brilliance sounds so much better from a distance, which the audience usually is.
Fernando
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2015-11-30 11:49
Hello everyone, just thought I'd like to add my perspective.
I like a very resistant set up. I was started (as most people were on 2 1/2 strength reeds and a stock mouthpiece and from studying with different teachers and trying new equipment I believe right now a resistant set up is best for me.
When I say resistance set up I don't mean that I have to "force" air through the instrument. That just sounds like a unbalanced reed. The main reasons I like resistance is that it gives me something to lean on. When I was younger I remember that "chirp" that was mentioned earlier and I attribute that to playing on reeds/moithpices that were too freeblowing. I find that resistance also allows for greater control and a broader dynamic range. When I try "light" set ups I find myself exceeding the comfort of the equipment, especially when I'm in the extreams of the instrument. Even if soft low notes speak instantly and easily, if the higher range can't sustain a solid tone, I can't play effectively.
That is just what I have found works for me. This is my first post on this website/board but I figured people should have both perspectives represented. Any questions or what not are welcomed .
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-11-30 16:59
Welcome, Geronimo! I've also experienced "chirping" with set-ups that were too free-blowing for me. I know that a few jazz musicians use no. 2 or 2-1/2 reeds, but I wonder whether anybody here uses a no. 1 or 1-1/2 reed? Do teachers ever recommend them to young beginners?
I ask because found an unopened package of "plain old Rico" 1-1/2s in a case with a used clarinet I bought at a flea market. Caveat: those reeds weren't new. They may date back decades. But I think that even if those reeds had been new, they wouldn't have worked for me even as a grammar-school beginner. Yipes -- terrible. I wasn't getting mere chirps. I squeaked like a rabid rat.
------------
Hey, ya, this is Dick Vigorous the 14th or 15th or somepin like that, borrowin Lelia's brain fer a minute. Yeah, I'm a rat, a dirty rat -- what's it to ya, huh? I liked them squeaks. More squeaks! That's what clarinets is good fer. Less of that namby-pamby Mozart. I come inna attic now an then, I don't wanna hear none of that Brahms crap, neither. Gershwin, some of him's okay, that long squealy thing at the start of that wrap-so-dee whatever, but gimme them squeeeeeeks! An tell that cat to go meow off. She don't scare me none.
Dick Vigorous, Boss Rodent
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-11-30 20:29
I too prefer some resistance to "lean on". Physically I'm just not that talented, so control has always been an issue for me. Having some resistance helps.
I've never understood the thing about huge tip openings. Saxophonists especially are always like, "Well I never could get the expressiveness and flexibility I wanted until I moved up to a Dukoff Ultra Mega Power 9***, I mean a Meyer 7 is Fine to start on but..." I wonder if sometimes people confuse volume with flexibility. I don't know what Johnny Hodges played, but judging by the sound, I'm sure a lot of guys today would find it tubby, but he was the master of glissando.
On Clarinet I get lots of flexibility out of my Gennusa GE using my throat and tongue. I think I got more color out of my B45, but I was also biting, and the 3rd register was impossible. (For me.)
Some guys sound great on free blowing set ups, I'm not one of them. I'm lazy so I'd like to play on something free blowing, but I can't control it.
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2015-12-01 01:40
Thank you Lelia for the warm welcome
In response to your question about strength 1 1/2 reeds, I had the pleasure of talking with a music historian who plays the old clarinets in a period orchestra.
For those instruments, specifically the chalumeau, softer reeds were essential for the clarinet to speak. I think she was using a vandoren black master 1 1/2 for the demonstration.
As for 1 1/2 on modern clarinets I can't think of ever finding an example of someone using that. Maybe a beginner's first time playing into a clarinet but I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a inexpierenced player on a strength 3 reed.
-GM
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