 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Corey
Date: 2001-05-07 02:06
this may sound like a stupid question but-- How high in the altissimo register ( third,fourth,and 5th octaves)can everyone play? i have gotten up to C# 5 one note above the the double high C ! my band teacher thinks that is excellent for an 8th grader-- still working up to G5 though ( thats the highest note on the clarinet i have heard of) hopefully i hear from many people on this subject-------------------> Corey
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-07 03:18
G5 is the G that sits right on top of the staff. I think you mean the g an octave above that which would be G6. G6 is not the highest note, however. Right now, I can easily get, with a good tone(this is qualified because it IS the altissimo register:)), the A6. I believe C7 is considered to be the top of the range.
Good luck, and keep working...but don't strain yourself trying to get the really high notes--they're not used too often (though they are indeed used), and on the clarinet, they can only sound so good. Let's leave it to the trumpet players in the world to contest who can hit the highest note.
Julia
N.B. by the way, for your info, the clarinet has the biggest range of the woodwind instruments
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-05-07 03:44
I think that Julia advice is well worth listening to. "Don't hurt yourself." There is no sense working hard to get to notes that so rarely used. Spend your time on the other registers and work to get good tone.
In a few years you may be another Benny Goodman.
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2001-05-07 05:59
We need to remember that middle C (the first ledger line below the staff) is only c1. Julia may have been mistaken when saying that g5 is the G on top of the staff, when infact it is g2. At least that's what i've been taught from the begining of my studies. g5 would be a note almost impossible to play by anyone.......even Benny Goodman!!! c3 is the C two ledger lines above the staff, and then c4 the C above that(6 spaces above the staff). so C7 would be in a range only attainable in theory..yes the horn can play that high, but in all actual purposes......only dogs would be listening at that point.....
So Corey...if you mean c#3 or even c#4...for an 8th grader, it's a perfectly good range. HOWEVER follow Bob's advice for now. Alhough being able to play those top notes makes playing everything else below that easier it is NOT something to be worrying about playing at this time. It could causemore harm than good. Expically for a player of your experience. The process you might use to play those notes( for example..your breath support, embouchure, tounge position) may be incorrect and could give you problems later on if this is what you're learning now. Go slow in playing in that range.
My advice to you, to go along with Bob's, is to stress the technical aspect of your playing. Stress scales, arpeggios, Thirds, Fourths, diminished chords...everything in the Baremann book or any other standard technique book. Build your technique and it WILL make your playing easier. It's a real pain in the backside to work on technique, but the sooner you make it a part of your playing, the better off you will be in 5, or 10 years.
Technique is more important now to you than any range is. I would be more happy with a student at you agr that can play his scales, thirds and play with execellent technique, than any student that can play higher than any dog can hear. Technique builds a player, well technique and talent. Range of playing is only a great benifit from learning the technique.
Practice, practice, practice!!!
Aaron Diestel
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-05-07 10:56
Note naming/numbering is not standardized so it is impossible to tell what note Corey means.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-05-07 11:39
There seems at least 3 conventions in use:
1. In the Geocities sax forum there is a convention that C1 isthe lowest C on the instrument, C2 is the next, and so on, with the lowest note being Bb1. Some disruption of hte convention and confusion arises when a baritone sax goes down to A, so some call this Ao.
2. The lowest G on the piano is G1, the next is G2, etc, making the G at the top of the treble staff G5.
3. Going from middle C on the piano, trhe first G is G1, making the one at the top of the staff G2.
How confusing!!
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-07 14:17
ok! we have run into this problem of note-naming before, and there is a standard method in use. the method we said we should last time we had this problem (thank you mark) was the method where C4 is middle C. Therefore, the notes above that would be D4, E4 and so on. when you reach the next C (third space in treble clef) it is C5. The end. This is the most standard way of naming notes...in any first level theory class you will learn it this way.
If you wonder as to why, go look at a piano.
So....I hope this has cleared up any confusion on the matter. And now, after explaining this very explicitly, perhaps Corey can tell us which G he was referring to. If I understand him correctly, it should be G6
Julia
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Author: William
Date: 2001-05-07 14:51
I can easily play chromaically from E below the staff to double high C above the staff, but I have been playing clarinets for many years and have disconvered that those lovely "ultra-sonic" high sounds are just right for keeping the wild elephants our of my yard. I havn't seen any for Years!!!!!! Ok--enough for the dumb jokes..... until you start performing much more advanced repretoir--in private lessons or advanced high school or college wind ensemble-- you need only to reach high G above the staff--that is the practical range of the clarinet. It is commendable that you are working your way up to the higher notes and, as an eighth-grader, you are doing great. Keep up the practice, be certain that you have a good reed, keep your breath support and embouchre firm, and you will make it happen. Keep having fun with music and Good Clarineting!!!!!!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-07 15:21
Corey -
The highest note Mozart wrote in the Clarinet Concerto is F above the third ledger line above the staff. His other clarinet parts rarely go above D.
Beethoven called for the G above that (for example, in the 8th Symphony, 3rd movement trio).
Weber's Concerto #2 call for a good-sounding A and Bb above that.
Spohr's concertos all go up to the high C, above the 5th ledger line, with lots of appearances of all the chromatic notes from G up to C.
Bartok's Contrasts goes up to B as a matter of course and requires that you be comfortable there, with a good tone rather than a controlled squeak.
A Set for Clarinet by Martino requires you to "pop" the high C over and over, with no more preparation than you might need for the C below that.
One of the most difficult solos in the orchestral literature is in Ginastera's Variations, where you have to have a good D above the high C (6th ledger line above the staff).
Modern fingering charts go up to the G above that (above the 7th ledger line). These really are squeaks. For some notes, you put your teeth on the reed.
The highest note you'll find in high school band music is 4th ledger line G, or very rarely a well prepared A. When you get into the altissimo at all, though, the clarinet line will be doubled by the flutes, which can play with comfort and control up there. If you're a music major in college, your teacher will have you work on the high notes, and you can't be a performance major without getting them under control.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-05-07 18:17
Many thanx to William and Ken et al for the enlightenment of what has been a confusing nomenclature and available range [I've always used the "marches range" rather than a "classical" range for my practicing] of the soprano cls. I love to run my Selmer bass cl up to and above the octave G, to surprise the Bb'ers! Don
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-05-07 19:02
Talk about confusing how about this, on my Yamaha P-200 digital piano middle C has a notation above it on the piano body as C-3 although it is clearly the 4th C from the bottom. Is it possible that Yahama dosen't know how to number the notes on their instruments?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-05-07 19:57
Great addition to the header, Mark. Ranks right up there with ombus . . .ombish . . . you know . . . mouth position.
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-05-07 20:22
The purpose of this thread is to try to come to some conclusion on how to properly reference notes, it makes little difference what instrument we reference . the ability to communicate to other clarinet players the correct name of the notes we attempt to play particulary in the higher registers is essential. It is impossible to give clear instructions on fingering if the advisor and the person asking for help are not refering to the same note.
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-05-07 20:41
To matt locker you may be right since there are two lower notes on the piano, B and A . it would not be logical to call them -1A and -2B. Soooo if that is correct middle C could very well be C-3.
Help , are there any experts on music theory out there?
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2001-05-07 21:07
Well I wouldn't say im a theory expert, but I have studied composition with many great teachers. Ones who have studied with Stravinsky to Berio. I also have my many theory books on hand. One I'll give for example is the Bruce Benward and Gary White "Music in Theory and Practice", 6th edition...McGraw-Hill publishers.
This book states that middle C on the piano, or grand staff is c1. The C below that is simply c (small c)...The C below that is C (great C)....below that CC...etc.
And going up from middle c....3rd space c is c2...2nd ledger line is c3...etc...
Also...in many computer notation programs...for example...Mosaic, Finale, Music Time....etc....all give middle C as c1. This can be seen in the transposition areas of the programs.
I have never heard from ANY of my teachers that c4 is middle c and I have no idea where that came from. I teach middle c as c1, as my theory professors have taught at my school for the past few decades. I know of no other system...
If we want to use middle C as being c4 on THIS board...that is fine....but in practice across the music world..all I have ever seen/heard used is middle c being c1.
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-07 21:13
ok----I'm sorry....but you can think what you want Aaron. middle C is most widely known as C4...it is what you will learn in any first level theory class! Either way, thats the notation Mark has stated now several times we are to use, sooo, lets just drop it and in the future remember to use the most standard way of naming notes (i.e. middle C=C4)
Julia
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-07 21:26
"Tonal Harmony, with an introduction to 20th century Music" by Payne and Kostka...4th edition, published by McGraw Hill, copyright 2000.
Go find it, read page 3. I'll quote from it.
Chapter 1--Elements of Pitch
THE KEYBOARD AND OCTAVE REGISTERS
" Pitch in music refers to the highness or lowness of a sound. Pitches are named by using the first seven letters of the alphabet: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. We will approach the notation of pitch by relating this pitch alphabet to the keyboard, using C's as an example. The C nearest the middle of the keyboard is called middle C, or C4. Higher C's (moving toward the right on the keyboard) are named C5, C6, and so on. Lower C's (moving left) are named C3, C2, and C1. notes below C1 are followed by a 0, as in B0. All the C's on the piano are labeled in example 1-1."
I hope this clears up any confusion on the matter!! and finally, hopefully, enough said!
Julia
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-05-07 22:51
I dug up the manual on my Yamaha keyboard and it references the range from A1 to C7 which would make middle C C4 as you and Mark suggest even though the piano is marked C3 for middle C. You would think that one of the worlds largest makers of pianos would be more consistant.
Also I don't beleive that all discussion should be terminated as suggested by Julia since some other " expert " may have a different view and I for one would like to hear their opinions. As you can see from previous posts not everyone agrees with your research.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-05-07 23:10
RonD
C4 has been middle C on the piano for a long, long time. There are, of course, other notations, but they aren't as common, at least in my books (some of which are technical references, some of which are music references). The ones labelling C1 as the lowest C on an instrument are only good within that particular instrument's range, and are of no use when comparing another instrument (C1 on a violin would not be the same frequency as C1 on a bassoon, making comparisons of the actual note impossible without yet another chart).
We've got enough problems with transpositions as it is (our C4 is not the same note as a piano's C4) but as long as we label things consistently we'll all be talking about at least the same note, not spending countless hours figuring out what "super high turbo powered C" means.
Here's what C4 actually refers to:
"International-Pitch-Notation (IPN). A system of pitch designation agreed upon internationally under the auspices of the Acoustical Society of America. In this system the international standard A=440 Hz is designated A4 and middle C is C4. All pitches are designated with capital letters and their octave placement by an accompanying Arabic number changing with each octave C. Thus, the lowest C on the piano is C1 (the A below that is A0). The first F# below middle C is F#3, etc."
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-05-07 23:18
Thanks mark, I appreciate the time and effort you and others on the BB invest on us. Its a great explanation.
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-07 23:31
Thanks again, Mark for being the one to convince to others of what the standard notation is.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-05-08 00:45
Julia,
It's really just one of many "standards", but since I've played keyboard at one time or another it's the one I'm most familiar with ...
And since I control what goes on the pages ... 8^)
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Author: Willie
Date: 2001-05-08 04:49
Back to the altissimo notes..........I, so far have mannaged to play all the notes on my old Klose fingering chart. BUT, I don't really enjoy playing way up there except for an occasional note or two. I don't like the tone of a soprano clarinet in the altissimo as much as clarion or chalumoux.
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-08 22:59
True...it is one of, oh, 2 or 3 different methods. But it is the most standard and most commonly used across the board---primarily because its not instrument specific. (everyone can refer to a piano)
Anyway, thanks again!
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Author: Laura
Date: 2001-05-11 23:56
I know a guy who can hit regularly, and in tune, an F# 7
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Author: Jim Valentine
Date: 2001-05-14 02:10
Is it Kenny Devern? I have heard him with Bob Wilber and talked with him after the concert. He can go up there easy.
Jim V
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The Clarinet Pages
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