 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-02-13 21:26
I recently tried some CSGs (in Bb) at the local music store. One silver plated without intonation key, one silver plated with intonation key, and one gold plated with the intonation key.
They were very consistent and seemed to be of excellent quality. There was no need to use any resonance fingering for the throat tones, intonation and ergonomics were great. However, if I remember correctly the alternative trill fingering for throat Bb to C above was of poor intonation. Furthermore, I perceived the tones over the break (B - C - C#) to be more resistant yet darker on all three than on the tosca, rc, e13 and sev. I am not sure but the altissimo might have been less accessible as well.
My main concerns though have to do with the additional keys. An extra Eb key is a must have, but, unlike buffet yamaha chose to link them so that they always move togehter. This combined with the relatively high spring tension makes the job hard for the right hand pinky, especially when trilling, as it has to work against the mass of the additional key and the higher spring tension.
As for the low E/F correction key, the mechanism itself works flawleesly and does what it is supposed to, but the tone becomes so stuffy and woody (I am not sure how to describe it. Unclean?) that the correction in intonation you get is not worth the decrease in tone quality.
Is this something anyone else can attest to and how are you coping with these characteristics?
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-02-13 22:04
The Eb key should be able to be improved somewhat (the spring tensioned lightened up and any binding dealt with). The pads may need to be changed during this process. I can't speak to the other issue as I have no experience with this model.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-02-13 22:12
I don't know why Yamaha insist in setting their spring tensions so heavy - they can always be balanced to suit the individual afterwards, but do they really need to be set up so heavy to start with?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-02-14 09:30
The only benefits I can see with high spring tension on the Eb key is better seal and faster downward movement. I talked to the salesman about the interconnected Eb keys and we concluded that it might be possible to modify their connection to make it work as on a buffet and although insurance and adjustments were included in the package they were not exactly eager to perform this modification.
Complaining about the unclean sound produced when using the intonation key for the two lowest notes I suggested that their repair tech might be able to alter the tone hole properties but the salesman thought it wise not to.
So maybe I will go for a pair of buffet RC with additional Eb lever instead.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-02-14 12:09
Lighter spring tension would mean a lighter pad impression. More care would be needed in pad installation to insure a good seal. The Ab/Eb pad is problematic for two reasons. One is that is usually has a short needle spring. Short springs on keys don't feel good and are hard to adjust. Second, the finger activates the key rather close to the axis of movement, whereas the pad cup is usually farther away. Sort of like trying to open a door by holding the top of the door close to the hinge side. Poor leverage.
Steve Ocone
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2015-10-28 06:04
Sorry to resurrect an old thread.
Those of you with the low e/f correction key, how does this fit in cases? Would it risk damage if in a generic case?
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2015-10-28 09:10
To BbMajorBoy:
First, if you use the case coming together with CSGIIIL or SE Artist, it is absolutely fine. Second, cases from BAM or Protec usually are very flexible. So it is still OK. But for CSG model the longer upper joint might be problematic for some cases. It is always good to try before the purchase.
Lee
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-10-28 12:30
I don't find any problems with either the "extra keys" or the length issue (usually). I do not have any of the updated Yamahas, but in 13 years of putting Oehler system Wurlitzers in Boehm cases, it was fine (same basic key and length dynamic). And I still deal with the length issue on my first generation CSG - all fine.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: tommo84
Date: 2015-10-28 15:59
I agree with the stuffy sound with the correction key.
On low F is still acceptable, but on low E the sound is very stuffy if you play loud.
If you play softer ( and that's where the correction key comes in help) then the sound is good...
for the eb/ab key, I found it perfetct. It is the first eb LH key that is confortable to play and doesn't get into the way...
For the case question: I have the same problem...I have a Buffet in A with its double case...and of course the upper part of my Bb CSG dosen't fit...how do you manage this Paul?
Post Edited (2015-10-28 16:02)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-10-28 16:16
I have not have had any issues with Buffet cases, though it may be a little snug lengthwise. It is only placing pressure (slight) on the wood and only at the ends.
Of course now that I think about it, my experience in the "switching cases" syndrome has been mainly with the single cases.
If you are looking for a double case alternative for the CSGs I know for sure that BAM makes one for the German clarinets that would work great. I had a BAM dealer order one for my Wurlitzers (but it took 3 months to arrive on a ship!).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2015-10-29 01:47
Thanks for your answers.
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2015-10-29 03:47
I suppose having spring tension tuned up gives more of an instant on/off clicky feeling. Having said that, I have had left hand pinky springs on my CSG tuned softer by a tech because of finger problems.
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Author: j8649
Date: 2015-10-29 05:07
I have a CSG, and I didn't have any problems with any of the keys. I think it is a great instrument.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-11-20 00:44
I own a set of the Yamaha CSGII's that have the low E/F Mechanism. The case I use is the Bonna because the rubber parts that hold the instrument in place can be moved. This easily accommodates that longer upper joints. Since the joints are suspended, the low E/F mechanism isn't resting on anything.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-11-20 03:15
I just read the original post and found the comments about the left hand G#/D# key perplexing.
- The left and right keys moving together do not create more work for the fingers, there is still only one spring and the left hand key is well balanced, adding no resistance/weight to the action.
the higher spring tension is unrelated to this, and can easily be adjusted (as others have pointed out). If the action of the extra key adds resistance it is because there is a problem at the point where the left hand key connects to the right hand key, and this too can be adjusted
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2015-11-20 18:42
Well this is an old thread and I never bought the CSG, but I think the comment about the interconnected G#/D# keys still holds true, at least in theory. The left hand key might be well balanced in some regards Donald, but it certainly does not have all its mass concentrated to the axis of rotation and therefore adds inertia to the system. And there is always some amount of friction. To counter this and to be able to close the hole as fast as with the left hand lever not being connected the spring has to be a bit stronger which makes it even tougher to trill with the right hand key, which I personally think is quite awkward as it is (see Steven's comment above). Maybe this is not too significant on a soprano clarinet but I feel it can be an issue on the bass from time to time.
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