 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-09-16 22:44
Does one have to train the embouchure to be able to play higher strength reeds by playing on them? I'm assuming so.
I'm likening it to archery, one can pull say a 30# bow for years but that doesn't mean eventually he'll be able to pull a 40# bow with the same ease and endurance. To pull 40# you have to train for it by shooting progressively heavier weights above 30# until he reaches 40#.
Thanks!
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-16 23:05
Up to a point, there may be a process of getting used to the stiffer reed because it's different. Beyond that point, a reed that's too stiff to vibrate well on a given mouthpiece is just too stiff for that mouthpiece - strengthening your embouchure won't make the result any better. Reed response is the result of the combination of reed vibrancy and mouthpiece qualities. If a #4 V12 vibrates well on a M13-lyre mouthpiece, putting a #5 on the mouthpiece won't give you better - or even, maybe, as good - results even after a period of adjustment on the player's part.
When I try a student on a stiffer reed (usually the next strength higher than the one he's using - whether that's a 1/2 or a 1/4 of a level - if he's still struggling to play it after a few minutes, I have him go back to the lower strength.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-09-17 02:48
In the early years of playing yes there is a need for gradually strengthening the embouchure and using gradually stronger reeds. But once a mature level is achieved then one arrives at an optimum reed strength for any given player/mouthpiece/instrument combination. That reed strength may end up as anything between say 2 1/2 and 5.
Going stonger than this optimum is counter-productive.
Bit like tyre/tire pressure in your car - there is an optimum for any set load and it is wrong and even dangerous to exceed the recommended pressures.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-09-17 02:52
Thanks Karl. OK assuming a reed and mouthpiece are compatible, but the strength or stiffness is too much for a person at the moment. It would seem a training period of playing that reed a certain amount say ten minutes a day in addition to your regular practice session would seem one way to get used to the higher strength. And so on to whatever strength reed one want's to eventually play. Of course there's physical limits for each individual, with that taken into consideration.
Ops, we posted at the same time Norm. Thanks!
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2015-09-17 02:53)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-09-17 02:59
The previous replies pretty well cover it. I would just add that the same player, using different mouthpieces, may find that one will comfortably play a #4 reed while another one will play a #2.5 using the same embouchure and effort. It's very much a combination of factors that make up the complete mouthpiece/reed/embouchure package.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-17 04:03
knotty wrote:
> OK assuming a reed and mouthpiece are compatible,
> but the strength or stiffness is too much for a person at the
> moment. It would seem a training period of playing that reed a
> certain amount say ten minutes a day in addition to your
> regular practice session would seem one way to get used to
> the higher strength.
Well, under your assumptions above, it depends on what you mean by "too much for a person at the moment." As Norman suggested, if the player has a reasonably mature embouchure and the stiffer reed is uncomfortable, all you add by forcing the harder reed is tension. If the added tension interferes with control, it will be unnecessary and even destructive of both tone and endurance, not to mention breath span. The only reason to move to a harder reed is that you find its response better and/or its sound an improvement over what you get from a softer reed.
If, in fact, the strength gives improved results, I would say it would take 10 minutes, period, not a strengthening program over multiple practice sessions, to accommodate to it.
The question when you increase your reed strength (which is the same question I ask any time the topic is equipment change) is, why? What's the goal in making the change? I guess in your hypothetical example you haven't really established why there's a need to move to a strength reed that the player needs to build up to.
Karl
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2015-09-17 05:11
This thread relates to a question I've had for some time: why have I settled in at 2 or 2 1/4, when the average player (at least on this forum) probably is at 3 1/2 or so? I have tried to do as knotty describes, deliberately train to jump up in reed strength. I have never managed this, though I am tempted by the qualities of tone I get with the stiffer reed, which I can only produce for a minute or two. This holds true with a variety of mouthpieces.
I am troubled by the fact that #2 reeds are not even available at many vendors. What's going on here?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-17 06:56
Any question about reed strength *has to* include information about the mouthpiece you're playing the reeds on. Reed strength can't be discussed in isolation.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-09-17 07:34
John Morton wrote:
"This thread relates to a question I've had for some time: why have I settled in at 2 or 2 1/4, when the average player (at least on this forum) probably is at 3 1/2 or so? I have tried to do as knotty describes, deliberately train to jump up in reed strength. I have never managed this, though I am tempted by the qualities of tone I get with the stiffer reed, which I can only produce for a minute or two. This holds true with a variety of mouthpieces."
Don't concern yourself with why you have settled with a 2 or 2.25. It just means that with your particular embouchure/mouthpiece/reed combination in conjunction with the amount that you play and the actual development of the muscular structures that form your embouchure you have arrived at what suits you best.
Personally, I gradually moved up the reed strength charts until I was playing a 3.5. I stayed there for several years, but experienced problems with biting. While sorting that out I tried playing with softer reeds and found that it not only eliminated the biting problem, but I sounded better than I ever had before. Now I play 2.5's with comfort and no biting. I tried several mouthpieces before I found the one that works best for me, and it wasn't the one I played 3.5's on.
Tony F.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-09-17 09:22
It might be a good idea to lower the reed strength number gradually until pitch or sound are not as good as normally. I play with a very fine player who uses #1 1/2 regular Van Dorens and plays beautiful solos in tune using a very medium mouthpiece. Why work hard to build a very strong embouchure when it may not be needed? I usually use #3s sanded a little but could easily play #2 1/2 V12s. They need to perform up to double high C when new and maybe a bit lower when older. Good luck!
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-09-17 22:35
Thanks for the replies guys! the prime reason I'd like to be able to play stiffer reeds is the tone quality.
Wes is it not good to be able to play the stiffest reed you can? (this is providing you can of course) I fully realize there are huge individual differences between people.
Taking the person you mention that plays on a 1-1/2, so the other side of that example is how many do play on reeds 3.5 and higher, maybe into the 4-5 range? if so, why do they?
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-09-17 22:52
This is a continuing discussion. Some of us like the sound of softer reeds and, to us, the hard reeds often sound thin and strained. It may be somewhat a matter of practice time, with harder reeds possible with a lot of practice time.
Air supplied to the reed is also a factor, with high air pressure needed for any size reed. Serious saxophone players use higher air pressure and this also helps their clarinet playing. Each player is different. Good wishes!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-18 00:10
I play on a range of #5 (traditional Vandoren) down through #4-1/2 and #4 (56 Rue, V.12, sometimes traditional) on a close (1.02 mm), medium-curved (17 mm) facing. But I rarely play on them as is out of the box. I take cane, sometimes significant amounts depending on the reed's natural response, out of the sides next to the rail and some from the tip, which leaves a strong core/heart and more flexible sides than any of the standard cuts. When I'm successful, it gives what I consider a more focused, powerful sound than softer reeds do, but because of the flexible sides and tip, a much easier response than the #4 to #5 reeds provide as the factory cuts them. But it involves a fair amount of reed adjustment, not all of it do-able with ATG, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend that much reed fussing to others.
You need to have a reed on your mouthpiece that's responsive and flexible and doesn't close as you play even when you get excited. There are a lot of ways to get there.
Karl
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-09-18 04:15
Thanks Karl. I'm a creature of experimentation. I believe one has to try it, live it to know for themselves what works for them. Got nothing to lose I just play for my cats when they'll listen. Now frankly, I haven't gotten to recording myself, so when I do that, I may have a completely different opinion of the sound of stiffer reeds.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-18 04:52
Whatever you think of it, you'll be surprised. Don't put the mic too close - no one (probably?) listens to you sitting in your lap. Except maybe the cats.
Karl
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Author: gwie
Date: 2015-09-20 04:51
I played Vandoren V12 4.5 all the way through college, graduate school, and into work. With the mouthpieces I played, I needed a stiff reed to get the sound that I wanted to project in orchestra. As I got older though, I noticed that through summer festival season, after doing programs of chamber music involving the popular quintets and trios with strings, I was feeling more and more fatigued at the end of each concert.
With Brad Behn's help and a new mouthpiece, I was able to move down to a Vandoren V12 3.5+, eliminating a lot of the tension I was using to achieve my sound on a stiffer reed. Also, I get many more usable reeds out of boxes now for some reason.
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