 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-09-15 05:17
I have a thread regarding a choice between going with the Libertas and R13, and it's becoming a very difficult decision. I'm still undecided both ways and today a call with Ted brought up something I hadn't thought of too much before. How much should I be worried about being denied acceptance into a college or being taught by a teacher once I get there (Currently a sophmore in High School)? I'd like to think it doesn't matter what clarinet I play as long as it sounds great and I'm comfortable with it, but I understand that there is a risk associated in regards to brand bias and prejudice
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-09-15 05:53
Well the real issue is SOUNDING GREAT. If you are sounding great on a $300 horn then that's all that matters. You cannot be denied admission into a school or and orchestra (in the US.....according to formal dictum anyway) based on the band you play. There are some stories of applicants being asked such a question and refusing to answer (bravo for them).
Now, I have to go back to SOUNDING GREAT. I don't want to disparage any one brand (I never even saw or tried a Ridenour) but you can count on the Buffet R13 being a resonant horn that WILL meet professional requirements. I and others often bellyache over intonation issues from horn to horn or some manufacturing irregularities here and there, but that is being picky. There are not THAT many horns out there you can count on to be of the proper depth and sonority to stand with a section of........Buffets.
There IS at least an unofficial prejudice that permeates the field. A good friend of mine who is not nearly as old as I, and had gone through the mill, playing assistant principal in several orchestras puts it this way: "It is a Buffet world, and I already have one," which was the response I got when I asked one day if he'd ever tried a such-and-such clarinet.
With a Buffet R13 you are safe. I could recommend others but, the R13 is safe.
Why flirt with a possible question mark?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2015-09-15 06:17
I mean the main downside i've found is that it kinda stains some of the nickel on the barrel and its nickel plating only
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-09-15 07:06
To add to Paul's comments- if those are concerns of yours, the Ridenour is a question mark. There is no question about the Buffet.
It is not so much about material, prejudice or stubbornness. It is because the Buffet has been around for many years and been a standard in the business. The Libertas is a newcomer and relatively unknown.
Post Edited (2015-09-16 03:40)
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-09-15 11:17
But on the sounding great remark, there are intonation issues that might make you work harder with an R13 than the Ridenour...
I'd go with the Ridenour every day of the week.
Regards
Peter
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-09-15 15:11
Since you already have a Buffet E12F, you could add a Ridenour to your kit and take both instruments to college with you. If you do encounter "It ain't wood so it ain't good" prejudice, you're covered with the E12F.
You did indicate some concerns in your other thread about tuning with your E12F and a desire for a more focused tone. A technician may be able to address the former; a carefully considered mouthpiece and reed combination should take care of the latter.
Personally, I'd exhaust all possibilities with the E12F before investing in another wooden instrument. It's not as if the E12F is a cheap, nasty instrument.
Another point to consider: Once you're in college, under the tutelage of someone who's made the clarinet their life's work, your concept of an ideal clarinet tone could and probably will change. A clarinet that sounds perfect to you today may turn out to be all wrong after a few months of lessons. Perhaps you should wait until THAT point in your career to upgrade.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-09-15 15:19
Reading comments on the other thread, there are people who say they love Buffet and have a great clarinet but warn there are bad R13s out there. So it looks like an R13 is not a guarantee of a good clarinet. So at the very least Try Before You Buy and don't buy unless you're sure it's a great clarinet
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-09-15 19:38
Exiawolf,
No it doesn't matter what brand you play as long as you are able to play in tune and adapt your sound to the needs of the music and to your colleagues in whatever ensemble you play. One of the absolute best ensemble in the world, the Concertgebouw Orchestra, even has different clarinet systems in the section. The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra has had selmer, backun, and buffet in the section at the same time as well.
And if a teacher decides not to teach you because of your instrument, he/she is not worth your time.
That being said, it is important that you buy an instrument that will allow you to do what you need to be competitive. My recommendation is to always try instruments with a trusted teacher or friend who can comment on how you sound and help you make the right choice.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-15 20:01
Sylvain wrote:
> And if a teacher decides not to teach you because of your
> instrument, he/she is not worth your time.
>
As I've read this thread, it has occurred to me that this isn't likely to be the most important problem. More likely, once a student has been accepted and lessons have begun, the teacher may begin to pressure him about replacing the instrument, whatever it may be, with a model the teacher prefers. In practical terms, you're safer from this kind of friction with a Buffet or Selmer (with Buffet the safest).
> That being said, it is important that you buy an instrument
> that will allow you to do what you need to be competitive. My
> recommendation is to always try instruments with a trusted
> teacher or friend who can comment on how you sound and help you
> make the right choice.
>
I strongly second this - especially a teacher if you are (I hope) studying. You don't hear yourself as others hear you no matter who you are, and a high school player isn't likely to have the experience to extrapolate his actual sound from the one he hears.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-15 22:37
David, I won't argue with you about any of what you've said in your last two posts. My snarky remark was in response to your snarky remark. If you find a topic boring or useless, I'd prefer that you just close it and don't open it again. What you don't read won't bother you.
But now you have contributed two detailed posts. Most if not all of what you've written about "other" makes is perfectly true. Exiawolf seems especially concerned that his choice could be "wrong" from the point of view of a prospective college music student who needs to audition for placement in a program. The practical reality is that, although he will get to make all of him own choices once he graduates (and has more experience on which to base choices), he will always be subject to a teacher's opinions about nearly everything while he is still a student. That isn't applause, just a description. Many of us have had the experience of having to choose between conflicting with a teacher over equipment or adopting equipment the teacher knows from his own experience is viable and supportive of what the teacher wants to develop in the student's playing.
My only point was that whatever Exiawolf buys now, whether it be good or less good, may become a point of conflict with a future teacher which will then become a continuing source of friction. Buying another new horn a year into a college program will be a duplicate expense. Not buying into the teacher's point of view may be hard to defend to a teacher who really dislikes the student's instrument or the playing it supports, however objectively good it may be.
No argument from me against your championing of diversity in the field of instrument design. But some of us are in better positions to make our own choices than others.
Karl
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-09-15 22:45
Well, David Powell has spoken!
I, for one, have played an Eaton. Very nice over-rated horn. Rare, yes, but nothing I would mortgage my brains out for.
One of the horns I do play is an amazing Leblanc Dynamic H, designed and built - top to bottom - by the visionary acoustician Charles Houvenaghel, a true genius of a man! Wonderful horn. But another horn I love is the Selmer Centered Tone, also a distinct instrument, factory built - yes - but when things were different. I also have a Selmer 10G that was selected for complete finishing to Gigliotti standards. Besides those are my 3 "Brannenized" horns, 2 Selmer 10 Series and my 1969 Buffet R13. All these horns will give any Artisan One-Off horn a run! But in the real world - yes - I absolutely love these horns, but I live in theater pits and weird Concert Halls, and I usually grab my Ridenour Libertas on the way out the door.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-15 23:04
Silversorcerer wrote:
> I don't expect clarinet players to recognize the names Jens
> Ritter or Fedora, or Carl Thompson, or even Ken Smith.
I know a bass player named Ken Smith who plays orchestral gigs in the Philadelphia suburbs. Could he by the same one you mention here?
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-09-16 02:40
Price of the raw material is not neccessarily a guide to the true musical quality of the instrument.
A colleague of mine who was for years the flute repairer in a top London flute shop told me they had precious metal flutes kept in the shop safe that were inferior to quite a few of the silver instruments in their stock.
The top echelons of professional players live or die by the standard of their performance and so choose equipment that gives them the greatest chance of survival.
If hard rubber/ebonite gave them the edge surely they would play it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-09-16 06:51
Would take a Libertas over a student Buffet any day.
The E12F is just that, a lowly student wooden Clarinet. Libertas is a Professional Level instrument that tunes better than most Clarinets costing over 2x.
You just became a Sophomore, so you have a long time before being in College. No College will not accept you due to playing a Libertas if you play really well. What they won't accept you for is being either not very teachable, not musical, or clueless in general.
A teacher at the given school might try to steer you to a "xxx", and you play the "yyy" - so you need to address that early on before deciding to attend. Speak with other students and find out if the teacher is flexible on instruments, or is a part of any Mafia.........
There are repairmen out there who are very, very "xxx" mafia driven, and will basically disown you if you switch from what they are used to working on.
Have seen it (not to me, but to others), and it is very, very, very ugly.
Not to a light weight player either!!!!!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-09-16 08:00
Thank you all for the replies.
David, I definitely know that what will get me accepted is not equipment at all, but rather me. Someone could throw $10,000 equipment at me, and I'd still sound like... Well me. However I'm on this hunt now because I know that I'm ready for a professional horn. I've been playing a borrowed R13 for about 2 weeks now and here are the big differences that I can note.
- The horn is over all subtly more responsive and requires practically no fuss to speak.
- Softer dynamics are much improved in comparison to the E12F, yielding a more focused and responsive sound.
-The instrument holds it's timber better at higher dynamics
- The altissimo register overall feels more comfortable and focused (The voicing test also seems to be better [Where you play the same note in three octaves without hitting the register or moving your embouchure])
- Overall the instrument tunes better, however the particular one I'm borrowing has a very flat chalumeau F and E.
- The instrument is more homogeneous through all the registers in shape and timbre
- In brief, after getting used to the key layout, the instrument was an improvement in every aspect, the most important being how comfortable I felt playing it.
That rant was off topic, but I wanted to give a better idea of why I am trying to get the horn upgrade now. I'm shooting to make it in to higher level summer music programs/festivals and a professional horn would make my life so much easier as a player. 2 years ago, I couldn't feel a difference between the E12 and R13, but I've grown so much as a player, and the differences are so obvious to me now. I'm disappointed my parents and I didn't listen to the advice from my instructor of going to a pro horn first.
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Author: andrewcsq
Date: 2015-09-16 08:43
As someone who's learning from my local symphony player (who teaches at one of the local music schools) I'll throw in my 2 cents. I agree with the above post that teachers seldom throw down an ultimatum of "change or scram". In my case, every time we encountered a problem with tone and other embouchure fundamentals (which was often - I'm no Julian Bliss in the making) my teacher's first resort was to speculate the extent to which my equipment was stunting my growth.
Once I switched a buffet RC prestige hand picked by him, I still faced these same fundamental problems. But instead of commenting on my equipment my teacher switched to discussing how my voicing may have been wrong. The player and problems were the same, but "somehow" my teacher's approach changed.
He also, at one time, made all his students switch to an M30 vandoren mouthpiece. I bought one for the purposes of showing to him that I had one. Then I proceeded to switch back to a Pillinger mouthpiece, one he had disparaged some weeks before. Thinking it was the M30, my teacher made the comment that I must have practiced, because my tone had improved. The money spent on the M30, to get my teacher off my back about equipment and to focus our lessons on what was really wrong, was in my opinion well spent.
YMMV - I had another teacher who had no problems with him playing a buffet vintage on a B40, and me playing on a Leblanc with a Pillinger mouthpiece. But if you do intend to take serious lessons at all, these sorts of slights that impede your improvement and the usefulness of the lessons may be something to consider
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-09-16 16:01
If you plan to study music, I would go with wood for now. Perhaps stick with your present model and keep your eyes open for a good used professional model. I don't have any professional customers that play hard rubber. This is not a criticism of hard rubber, just an observation.
In terms of the quality of manufacture, I have not seen any Chinese clarinets that are as good as a professional Buffet. Please don't start spouting out complaints about Buffet. I'm just using it as a basis of comparison. In general Chinese clarinets are getting much better, and there may be some I can recommend soon. I have done some consulting for one Chinese factory and am anxious to see if they make changes based my input.
I make my living repairing clarinets, not playing clarinets, so this is my perspective.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2015-09-16 16:03)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-09-16 18:49
I have expressed this sentiment several times here on BBoard, that I wish it were possible, even convenient, for students, teachers, professionals to choose clarinets in a double blind setting. In fact, I would like to FORCE them to do it, at least- anyone who ever seeks to coerce others into a particular brand or material.
I'm imagining the OP wearing a blindfold or sitting in a darkened room, and someone handing over a series of clarinets. And just like the eye doctor, they keep asking, "Which is better, A or B?"... 20 times, 50 times, whatever it takes to really know OP's favorites of the pool of available candidates, that day anyway. Or perhaps it's OP playing + prof listening but not touching. Ideally even the person handing over the clarinets would not know what any of them are, or even whether made of grenadilla or hardened used bubblegum- but that's probably not doable. If the handler knows- then the test is blind but not double blind, if I understand my terminology.
I suppose the helper would keep transferring mouthpiece from clarinet to clarinet, often a dicey proposition. And since every clarinet potentially "needs" a different mouthpiece / reed combo to play best, the whole experiment could be flawed. Less chance of gumming up the ligature and reed if you swap the barrel / mouthpiece assembly, but then you REALLY have a problem with the differing barrel needs of various clarinets.
Even beyond the mp/reed/barrel problem, it wouldn't be perfect. For one thing, certain clarinets have a distinct feel, for good or bad. Of course, that's part of the preferences, which I guess is OK. Years ago I replaced a Ridenour TR147 (boy those vary!) with a Yamaha YCL61 solely because of the superior key feel... acoustically it was a wash. And some of you think you could immediately recognize the sound of your favorite horn. That is possible, I am just skeptical.
But... I practically GUARANTEE surprises in the resulting choices. R13's down the line? Maybe, but I doubt it. And that's even for the Buffet or grenadilla true believers. Maybe even I would choose an R13 (never touched one).
Even with the obvious limitations, such a sample booth would be a great thing to set up at a clarinet convention. Everybody would be excited except perhaps the Buffet reps.
This approach could work equally well for basses, trumpets, pianos...
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-09-17 05:10)
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-09-17 06:46
Hard rubber is certainly a suitable material from which to build clarinets. It works well. The Lyrique clarinets play well. Some of the other Chinese made hard rubber clarinets are not so great. Many of them are actually pieces of crap. That isn't because of it being made of hard rubber. It's because of shoddy design and workmanship.
We are not seeing players in major symphonies dropping their wood clarinets in favor of hard rubber. I don't see that happening. I'm also not seeing clarinet professors in the universities using the hard rubber clarinets. There might be some that have bought one to try out, but I believe their go to clarinet to be the one they've come to trust over the years.
As time goes by things may change. If I were a high school student looking to be a music major in college I'd look for a nice used R-13. With one of those you'd fit in with the majority. With a hard rubber clarinet you'd be different. Good or bad? I don't know.
Get the email addresses of some of the clarinet professors at some of the schools you're considering and ask them what they suggest.
All of that being said, if I were without a clarinet and be in the market for one, and with what I use a clarinet for at this time in my life, I would buy a Lyrique. They play and tune well, and I don't give a darn what somebody else may think.
Post Edited (2015-09-17 06:58)
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