 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-01 23:24
I've come into an interesting collection of 78 RPM albums - old Stokie, Ormandy, Fiedler, etc. performances - and I'm interested in finding an inexpensive turntable that will play them. I have two turntables, but they're only 2-speed machines. Can anyone suggest something currently available? I've seen a line of Crosley players at a couple of major retail chains that play through their own self-contained amps and speakers, but I'd prefer to be able to play them through an external stereo system or, using a USB output, into a computer.
For anyone who knows: can these old (I assume) shellac records be safely played with "modern" diamond styluses? I know the old osmium tips for 78s were larger, but also softer. Will a diamond meant for LPs tear the 78s up?
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-09-01 23:29
Numark PT01 claims to be able to play them.
Everything I'm reading says DON'T use a modern stylus - discounting the damage they cause, you'll end up with a low S/N ratio because it'll ride on the bottom of the groove.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-02 00:10
Mark Charette wrote:
> Everything I'm reading says DON'T use a modern stylus -
> discounting the damage they cause, you'll end up with a low S/N
> ratio because it'll ride on the bottom of the groove.
Yes, I saw one in my browsing (will have to look for it again) that had the flip-over cartridge the turntables and changers had when I was a kid - 78 RPM osmium on one side and diamond for LPs on the other. Of course, the osmium tips weren't very long-lived, so to use them now you'd need a reliable source for replacements. Except for the single stylus, the Numark looks like a good candidate. Thanks.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-09-02 00:38
Scour the junk sales and antique shops and you may find a box or travel gramophone (Columbia, HMV, etc.) but don't store your 78s in the lid compartment as they will break them!
Either that or an old Dansette-style record player (with a double-sided stylus) which will have 16, 33, 45 and 78rpm, but don't use the autochanger to play a whole stack of shellac discs as they'll probably shatter when they hit the turntable or slip on the discs already on there. The autochanger function is only of any use with 7" singles with the circle of raised teeth surrounding the label so they will all mesh with one another and shouldn't slip.
I used to tinker with an old Columbia box gramophone we had from the ages of 6 through to 9 years old - learnt how to take all the mechanism apart and put it back together again. One of my favourite 78s in the odd collection we had for it was Chopin's Polonaise in A Major - also had the first part of Schubert's 8th and there were various other discs of popular tunes from the '20s through to the '50s (the late ones were vinyl 78 10" discs).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2015-09-02 00:39
In addition to needing a 78 RPM stylus, you also do not want to use an automatic turntable. The impact of the record dropping onto the turntable can crack or shatter a shellac record.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-09-02 01:41
The Dual 3-speed turntable is your best bet. I'd get it from a specialist store rather than off eBay, so you can be sure it's in good condition.
The 78 rpm stylus is much wider than the microgroove 33 rpm one. They're incompatible. There's a bunch of choices at http://www.esotericsound.com/CartStyli.htm.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-09-02 02:17
I have a 33rpm of the Mozart Clarinet concerto (Bela Kovac) where the first half of the 1st mvt has been wrecked by playing it with the "78 stylus" from an old flippy one (Gerrard turntable).... dad was not amused (1975 ish). I still listen to it every now and again and remember my dads deep deep sigh when he came into the room and worked out what was happening....
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-09-02 03:00
My first thought would be to look for one of the BSR turntables that were everywhere in the late '70s and early '80s. These have ceramic cartridges and can connect directly to the Line-In port of a computer. They also have the dual styli for "78's" and 33/45 RPM records, and replacements are still available online.
If you can find one in good functional and cosmetic condition, invest in a new idler wheel to minimise wow and rumble.
I've been using software titled "Magix Audio Cleaning Lab 2004" to do my archiving of vinyl, cassette, 8-track, and reel-to-reel recordings. It does a wonderful job minimising or eliminating record pops and general noise as found on old recordings, and the graphic EQ and Brightness enhancers can really bring old recordings to life.
Post Edited (2015-09-02 03:13)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-02 04:34
Ursa wrote:
> If you can find one in good functional and cosmetic condition,
> invest in a new idler wheel to minimise wow and rumble.
>
But where do you get parts for such audio antiques?
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-09-02 06:17
Karl, just do a Google search for "BSR turntable idler wheel" and "BSR turntable stylus" and you'll find ample online sources for these parts.
Any used turntable capable of 78 RPM is going to need, or would benefit from, a new drive belt or tyres. The BSR is, in my opinion, among the most cost-effective options for your application. It's one of the most recent 78-capable units made, and you won't need a preamp to connect it to a computer or a stereo's AUX input.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-09-03 05:13
"78" rpm records come in 2 different versions. Most of what you will find will be slightly thicker than an LP (33-1/3) record and have an intentionally abrasive groove so that the needles (typically 3 mil sapphire) will be sacrificed rather than the groove. The grooves have the audio in side-to-side motion.
Still older 1-sided thicker versions (to be played at 80 rpm - the same speed that a CD spins by the way) have the sound encoded vertically ("hill-and-dale") and also have very abrasive grooves (limestone was added). A stereo 'turnover' cartridge (w/ a lever to select LP or 78 needle) will play either version reasonably well since the stereo groove walls move the needle at 45 degrees.
Playing a 78 with an LP needle (1 mil sapphire in cheap needles or 0.2x0.7 mil diamond in better needles) will generate more noise, wear the grooves, and be worn out. So get a player with a cartridge for which you can get replacement needles, as you will need them.
Years ago, I saw 78 needles available for magnetic cartridges, but would not likely be found today. Most affordable 'turnover' cartridges have a 'ceramic' signal generating element which provide a higher voltage, and as mentioned above, may be playable (to some extent) into a computer 'aux' or 'line level' input, but the ceramic elements need high impedance (> 1megohm) or you will loose a lot of bass. I think most computer aux inputs are around 10K ohms.
Also be aware that up until the early 60s, some 78s play with different 'equalization' curves (an LP is almost always a 'RIAA' curve), and there were a few different competing curves.
I would recommend getting a small mixer, e.g. an Alesis Multimix 4, that has a high impedance input (for guitar pick-ups) and connects to USB ports, and use that to input your signal from the cartridge directly as digital into a recording and processing program, e.g. Audacity, to record it, then create a filter to match the equalization curve, and maybe use some noise filtering to taste.
Garrard turntables were good and plentiful but the lubricant in the mechanisms are likely to have become very stiff by now. Some tube amplifies like Bogen or Fisher also had selectable equalizations and the proper inputs (and 'hot tube smell'!).
Enjoy!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-03 06:28
I haven't noticed - is the equalization curve identified somewhere? I have in my hand one of the records, a Victor Red Seal Record from an album with Stokowski conducting the NBC Symphony (which should date the recording pretty well) in Stravinsky's Firebird Suite. I don't see anything that looks like an equalization curve ID - most of the print apart from the obvious info about the music and the performers has to do with patent protection warnings (no copyright notices, however, even on the album art).
I had one of those Garrard changers/turntables (the changer spindle was interchangeable with a short single play one) and a flip-over cartridge. Unfortunately, I wasn't foresighted enough to hold onto it. As I said in my original post, I have two newer turntables - a Denon and a Sony - in the house, which I use occasionally to play LPs, but they don't have a 78 RPM speed, only 45 and 33-1/3.
I'm learning some interesting things about 78s from this thread, and I've been reminded of things about turntables in general that I once knew and had forgotten. Thanks, everyone.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-09-03 07:20
Generally the equalization curves were associated with particular companies, e.g. Columbia Records which had the 'Columbia' equalization curve. Research on each label would be needed. BTW, the eq is typically to add bass on playback (the bass was lowered on record to lessen needle movement) and reduce treble (added to counteract surface noise) and the major difference is how far up the spectrum the bass is added and how far down the treble is subtracted. You can fudge this to your taste.
In this article on how to build a 78 phono preamp, is a list of equalization frequencies for various 78 labels:
http://sound.westhost.com/project91.htm
Post Edited (2015-09-07 15:21)
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