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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-08-27 19:24
I'm often struck by how many students come to me with problems with basic rhythm and tempo, even kids in college.
When I ask them if they played with rhythm instruments, sang along with "records," or danced when they were small, the answer (at least for my students) has always been "no." Typically their only connection with music was passive: sitting in front of the TV or in a chair with headphones on.
So, for some weeks, and occasionally thereafter if it's necessary, I take them out in the backyard and have them march and bang a wooden spoon on a frying pan to a recording of a march or some such thing. When they finally are able to connect with the rhythm viscerally, they do fine. (The older ones hate it, but it works.)
What do you do when a student has this problem? I was thinking of trying that metronome gizmo that gives tactile impulses, but it seems to me that this would be useless because the student would still be passive, and that motor training is necessary. (That seems to be what a developmental therapist might say.)
B.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-08-27 21:01
Most upper elementary, middle school, and high school music teachers teach rhythms with the traditional 1 2 3 + 4 etc. I've found that many students just can't connect with this approach, and never really learn how to read rhythms correctly.
When I was a young band teacher, teaching in elementary and middle schools, that's the way I taught too. Students started coming to me, showing me how their vocal music teacher did it. He used the Kodaly system (a quarter note is "ta," two eighth notes are "ti ti," etc.). I started using it too, and noticed an immediate improvement.
So many teachers of older students consider this to be a babyish approach, and won't go near it. Why? If students can't connect with the rhythm with the traditional 1 2 3 + 4 approach, what's the harm?
The Kodaly system does have limitations, and once students move beyond basic whole note, half note, quarter note, and eighth note rhythms, it isn't all that useful. Still, the basic rhythms are the building blocks, and once students are solid with them, harder rhythms are more easily mastered. The Kodaly system is a great way to build stronger reading skills with the basic rhythms.
Many years ago, I met Bruce Pearson of Standard of Excellence fame. He believes young students should sing their short selections before they play them, and move their hands in rhythm as they do it. It's a great approach that can be slowly phased out as students move through the beginner book.
I have young students sing with note names and Kodaly syllables. If a student is catching on, I'll usually add the traditional 1 2 3 and 4 approach.
It's tough when you get older students who have never really learned their basic rhythms. You could go back to square one and teach them the basics, but most won't go for it. Your backyard technique sounds good to me.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-08-27 21:05
clarinetguy, I'll look into the Kodaly method. I've used a Suzuki-like approach to teaching rhythmic figures, but they have to know where the beat is before we go there.
Being the jerk that I am, if they refuse to do the backyard thing or something close to it, I refuse to teach them.
B.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2015-08-27 21:10
I'm all for being active and practical about learning.
If a pupil has problems with counting, then get them actively doing something about it. From marching/banging on every beat or whatever, you can move on to "Now if I count, can you hit the "3" with me? or whatever it might be.
Coupled with this, it is an acknowledged pedagogical fact that different people have different styles of learning. For some, sitting and listening may work but for others, a more movement-based (kinaesthetic) approach provides better results. This applies to learning any subject, music, maths, or any discipline.
I remember many years ago watching Yehudi Menuhin coaching a string quartet at his school (who by definition were already accomplished musicians) and he got the violins and viola processing around the room as they played.
Vanessa.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-08-27 23:27
I agree with you that a tactile pulse generator like that would still be passive and, therefore, of little more use than a regular aural metronome.
Most often the problem is either a poor sense of rhythm - the note lengths are fairly random - or a poor sense of steady tempo - the notes lengths are relatively right but out of time with a metric pulse. Most young kids can imitate the songs they hear with quite accurate rhythm, but not necessarily at the tempo adults would sing them. They have a holistic concept of the rhythm of "America," but have trouble when you (later) try to teach them to read and perform a dotted quarter and eighth note pattern. That's why most early childhood music programs make heavy use of mnemonics - Am-ster-dam (triplet with dotted eighth-sixteenth-eight), Char-lie Brown and Snoo-py," "run po-ny run po-ny" (American Suzuki mnemonics).
With older students (12 years old or older) - I haven't taught young ones in several years - I use an old fashioned mix of rote (I sing, they imitate), performance without the instrument (they sing the rhythm themselves), verbal counting (1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and, etc.), foot tapping and anything else I can do to get them to internalize problem rhythms.
We also discuss the relationship of the rhythm to the meter. If I ask a student how long a dotted quarter note is, I almost always am told "a beat and a half." While technically true (if a quarter note is the beat unit) it most of the time doesn't tell the student anything about when to play whatever follows, and they still guess about when to play the next note. So I generally only ask how long a note is as a trap question to start a conversation about what's more important in performing from printed music, which is to know when to play the note after the dotted quarter (or the half tied to a double-dotted eighth or anything else that doesn't fall squarely on a beat). We deal more explicitly with playing the following eighth _on_ "the and of two" rather than "after a beat and a half." Likewise, the rhythms in the intro to Weber's Concertino are much better felt in terms of when each note is played instead of how long each must last. We can plot out what notes are on each beat and then play the others in relation to them - on a subdivision or just before a pulse note, etc... We can get finer and finer as the student is comfortable with the basic placement of problem notes (almost everything in the Weber introduction). Once we get everything in the right place metrically, all that's left is to establish the pulse rate for the meter. That, IMO, is basically a rote process that simply takes time and the student's concentrated awareness.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-08-28 00:05
clarinetguy wrote:
> Most upper elementary, middle school, and high school music
> teachers teach rhythms with the traditional 1 2 3 + 4 etc.
> I've found that many students just can't connect with this
> approach, and never really learn how to read rhythms correctly.
>
I think the problem with it is that it's used with students who are too young. I'm not sure there's another way when, as the students age, their music becomes more complex (as you observe yourself below about "Kodaly" syllables).
>
> When I was a young band teacher, teaching in elementary and
> middle schools, that's the way I taught too. Students started
> coming to me, showing me how their vocal music teacher did it.
> He used the Kodaly system (a quarter note is "ta," two eighth
> notes are "ti ti," etc.). I started using it too, and noticed
> an immediate improvement.
But it needs to be built from the ground up. It worked in your setting partly because the kids already knew and used those syllables. The vocal teachers did a lot of groundwork to establish that system. I had the same advantage when I taught 3rd-5th graders, but we aren't all that fortunate.
> So many teachers of older students consider this to be a
> babyish approach, and won't go near it. Why? If students can't
> connect with the rhythm with the traditional 1 2 3 + 4
> approach, what's the harm?
As you note in your next paragraph, most of the music instrumental students play in middle and high school can't easily (or at all) be solfeged using these syllables. Most school systems begin teaching "general music" in kindergarten and the syllables are both age-appropriate and useful for the music they use to practice reading skills. Most school systems don't start band programs until 4th or 5th grade and the music gets too complex too quickly.
> I have young students sing with note names and Kodaly
> syllables. If a student is catching on, I'll usually add the
> traditional 1 2 3 and 4 approach.
You'd have to, because once you get past ti-ri-ti-ri (16th notes) and tim-ri (dotted 8th-16th) you're stuck.
>
> It's tough when you get older students who have never really
> learned their basic rhythms. You could go back to square one
> and teach them the basics, but most won't go for it. Your
> backyard technique sounds good to me.
You have to use a different approach to "square one." They generally won't go back to Kodaly or Suzuki mnemonics, but by then counting beats and subdivisions, which are more arithmetic-based, is more practical than at earlier ages.
One other side to this is that many students who have trouble with rhythmic accuracy when playing by themselves (as in a private lesson) have much less trouble playing in a group. In an ensemble they have others modeling. But there's also more likely to be an active, audible pulse going on somewhere in the musical texture that can help keep the student's rhythm on track - as though the teacher were sitting next to him audibly counting the beats in his ear as he plays.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-08-28 03:25
Karl, you really know your Kodaly syllables! Good observations. By the time we get to sixteenth notes, I'm usually long past Kodaly.
It's ideal when children get a solid general music foundation. When they do, it's an easy transition to playing an instrument and reading music. For various reasons, though, many children either don't acquire the basics well or have trouble making the transition from singing to playing.
Post Edited (2015-08-28 03:32)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-08-28 03:47
I'm curious, as we talk about Kodaly and Suzuki and traditional counting whether anyone here has experimented with or used the (Edwin) Gordon syllables to teach rhythm.
Karl
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Author: Scaysie
Date: 2015-08-28 03:56
Forgive me for going off at a slight tangent and hopefully not hijacking the thread.......
Last night at Symphonic Wind Band practice (an A Grade band),our stand in conductor,Josh, as part of the warm up,shared an exercise he did with the kids in his primary (elementary ?) school.
He asked everyone to clap hands on the beat while he conducted. It was quite interesting to hear everones different interpretation of when they should start the note.
After practicing this for a while, and everyone listening for the collective sound ideally being at its lowest pitch, we played the warm up scale and the difference was profound
Also.....as our band is quite large it was more than interesting to be aware of the time delay relationship between the movement of the baton , the individual musicians' position in relation to the conductor (baton),and ultimately what the audience hears. There can be a 0.5 sec difference between the flutes up the front and the percussion up the back and this might be what the audience hears!
Thanks to all for this very interesting conversation. When I was doing my B.Mus.Ed I was lucky to study Dalcroze Eurhythmics .....all about movement in time and space.
bmcgar...... I can recommend a cursory look at this work in establishing spacial awareness , duration of sound,direction ,phrasing etc. ,in making your walks in the backyard even more theraputic. Thanks again for the thread !!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-08-28 05:52
As a private clarinet instructor without a degree in Music Ed or deep familiarity with Kodaly's methods or of Suzuki stuff, I must say that I've found it difficult when students use the Kodaly syllables in particular. The "Ta" syllable usually ends up impacting how they actually interact with the clarinet because it's so tied to pronouncing the syllable. I know, small quibble when the rhythms are done right!
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-08-28 09:49
I'm glad to see the Gordon syllables mentioned. I have used the Gordon syllables extensively in my teaching career, both as a middle band director and private teacher. I became convinced of their utility through an experiment I did one year. I had two periods of intermediate band that were divided equally by numbers and ability. One I taught using traditional counting, the other using Gordon syllables. I had to end the experiment after a couple of months because the class that was using Gordon syllables was so far ahead that it was starting to feel immoral to continue. When I switched the other class over to Gordon they were almost able to catch up over the next few months, but not quite.
This system makes so much more sense, especially for wind players as they are less likely than Kodaly to overlap with the whatever syllable is used for articulation. Also they are a coherent system. Main beats are always "Doo" and off-beats in duple meters are always "day". It makes it pretty easy to move from simple to more complex rhythms. It's easy to teach students to count later when they've already gained some fluency. Rhythm is the foundation for any real understanding of and achievement in music. I've found it sad that Gordon and his work have never gotten the attention they deserved. I've never used his methodologies exclusively, but I did apply many of his concept with a great deal of success and satisfaction.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-08-28 10:37
Now that I'm thinking about it, success seems to come faster with my kinesthetic training as the number of muscles and the size of the muscles increase.
In an admittedly statistically small sample, those students who I've worked with using hand movements or singing progress slower than those I've had marching and banging on things.
Makes sense to me, anyway.
I've also had a few students who try to "think" the beat instead of "feel" it. Those are the hardest to deal with. Playing the music loudly during the exercise has worked best in those cases. (Please, no lectures about hearing loss.>
B.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-08-29 02:58
Most musicians need very explicit instruction in rhythm with both correct demonstration and analytic explanation from the teacher. When I began to learn music in the 1950s, there were a few teachers known to have the knack of imparting precise rhythmic solfeggio to students in a way that would "stay taught." My instructor was an old Italian who used the book "Rhythmical Articulation" by Pasquale Bona, along with the Jimmy Dorsey sax method to cover both classical (mostly operatic) and syncopated jazz rhythms. The standard method and etude books (Klose, Rose, Baermann etc) just don't present enough rhythmic variety to give the practice needed.
Rhythm studies need to be updated to speak to each new generation and to cover changes in rhythmic complexity found in many different genres of music. Some decent attempts to do this are Ed Suetas Rhythm Spectrum (available from his website) and the college text "Studying Rhythm" by Ann C. Hall (now in its third edition). Joe Viola and Joe Allard have made good contributions to rhythmic study at the advanced level--Viola in the third volume of his Technique of the Saxophone (Rhythmic Studies) and Allard in his "Advanced Rhythm for Sax." (Fred Lipsius's Reading Key Jazz Rhythms" is another useful book). These are mostly jazz-based but the sense of rhythmic awareness developed in them transfers to any style of music--and of course they can be played on the clarinet. Paul Jeanjean delivers a rhythm workout in the third volume especially of his 20 Etudes Progressives et Melodiques, but the difficult key signatures limit the use of this work to players with lots of scale and arpeggio practice under their fingers.
For all you enterprising entrepreneurs out there, I believe there is a market niche for teaching beginners and intermediate players to handle progressively more difficult rhythmic challenges that has not yet been filled by existing study books for clarinet.
Post Edited (2015-08-30 22:22)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-08-29 18:51
Thinking back to Bruce's original message, I remember chatting a number of years ago with a music ed professor from a school that's not among the elite. He was sad and frustrated that a number of entering freshman didn't know how to play dotted quarter notes correctly.
Each of these counting systems has its pros and cons, but they can be very useful. It is a shame that Edwin Gordon's system isn't better known. Most of the private students I see are somewhat familiar with Kodaly, and I often try to build on that. I don't ever recall having a student who was exposed to Gordon. If I'm not mistaken, James Froseth also has a system, but it seems to be even less-known.
Those interested in the topic will like this article about the fairly-new Takadimi approach. http://www.sudburydrums.com/uploads/5/8/0/1/5801637/takadimiarticle.pdf
Part of the problem today is that many school vocal, band, and orchestra teachers don't really have the time they need to teach everything correctly, but that's the topic for another discussion.
Post Edited (2015-08-29 19:07)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-08-29 20:18
The reference to Don Ellis' New Rhythm Book in the article on the Takadimi method reminds me of the experience my friend, the late alto sax and reed player Lonnie Shetter, related after he joined the Don Ellis big band. He said Ellis had been trying out musicians from the studios in Los Angeles to play the odd meter charts, and even those experienced sight readers had to learn to count time all over as if they were absolute beginners. Playing all those shifting meters was like having the rug pulled from under your feet every few bars--way harder than Stravinsky or Bartok. Musicians with experience performing or natural affinity for Indian ragas had a better time of it--especially if they grew up playing the tabla drums. But even after individual players got their parts counted right, they had the additional challenge of counting and phrasing them together as a (sax or woodwind) section. It is one thing to improvise over constantly shifting meters and still another to play written passages rapidly in unison without lapsing into heterophony.
Any proposed system for counting rhythm has to be able to accomodate "irregular" asymmetrical, shifting meters as well as regular ones.
Post Edited (2017-09-06 22:29)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-08-30 20:36
Just to bring things back to where they started, what I was addressing in my original post was the reasons for, and remedies for, students not "knowing" where the beat is in basic figures, not how to learn various rhythms or handle rhythmic complexity, per se.
All this info about systems is very interesting, but beyond the scope of my observations and query.
I thank you all for your input, however.
B.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-08-31 01:04
For the basics, I have encountered a plethora of adults who cannot play a steady beat. Some with music degrees, too. If I ever give private lessons again, what I want to do for the rhythm basics is to teach by ear first, not have them look at black marks on a page and send them through the intellect before trying to express them physically. So after someone learns a rhythm pattern and can reliably do it with a metronome, then they would see it on the page. I teach note reading much the same way....do this, it is called that, and after they can do it, here is what it looks like on the page, so when you see it on the page, it is already in physical memory. Seems to work very well for the beginner set. I can see how marching around the back yard beating on a pan with a spoon is going to be the same kind of thing.
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