 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ibemusicman
Date: 2015-08-10 07:02
Attachment: Front Embouchure.jpg (165k)
Attachment: Left Profile.jpg (168k)
Attachment: Right Profile.jpg (177k)
My apologies for the novel... But please, any help or suggestions is GREATLY appreciated.
I have been struggling with embouchure collapse my whole entire career in college, so the past four years (I am a super senior, taking 4 elective credits for graduation) I never had this problem prior.. I started playing in 5th grade.
I can barely make it through 20 minutes of playing without major air leaks, exhaustion, and intense Co2 build up.
I have tried Alexander technique, Breath Builder tube, Breathing Gym, Green Exercises, long tones, down-strength a reed size, mouthpiece scouting, etc...
My tone is very stable for the first 20 min.
After that, my tone becomes quite flat, air leaks start to happen, my phrases get cut short from being out of breath faster, and Co2 build up (I feel my upper body tense.) I catch myself biting in more and cannot stop it, even when I reset. No matter how long I take to reset, everything fails after the 20 min mark.
I have tried to address this to my professor, but I am not getting the feedback that addresses or has remedy the situation, and it seems like I've been given up on. I also tried another teacher outside of school, but seemingly running out of ideas as well.. Here are some pictures and profiles of my embouchure...
I am a decent player otherwise, making it really hard for to drop this profession... But if I cannot remedy this soon, I may have to consider something else.
Equipment
R13 Buffet (Bell, both middle joints, bell)
1.06 facing McClune Mouthpiece
3 1/2 Vandoren Traditional
Vandoren Optimum Ligature
Any feedback, links, info, or sources would, again, be greatly appreciated.
Thank you all!!
TL:DR
Breath and Embouchure support collapses after 20 minutes of playing and cannot seem to remedy the situation.
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Author: ibemusicman
Date: 2015-08-10 07:53
Karl
Unfortunately, I have a hard time curling my upper lip to cover my top teeth. To get it to stay I have to really bite down, which is quite painful.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-08-10 09:23
Do you or have you practiced long tone exercises? Have you used an embouchure where you are rounding the lips around the mouthpiece and not biting down? Is your reed too stiff?
The photos seem to look like you could take some more of the mouthpiece in.
Good wishes!
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-08-10 09:24
Attachment: Embouchure.jpeg (599k)
This may or may not help at all, but the first thing that I noticed is that the mouthpiece is in your mouth at basically a right angle. If you bring in the angle, so that your top teeth are closer to the tip of the mouthpiece and your lower lip is further down the reed, your embouchure has to do less work and there's less of a biting tendency, leading to less embouchure fatigue, less lip pain, and less restricted airflow. (I've attached some slightly disproportionate diagrams to demonstrate what I mean.) I used to play at a bigger angle, and when I switched to a smaller angle recently it really helped with fatigue.
It also looks like you're pulling the corners of your mouth back into a smile, which causes more fatigue than if you pull them "in." (Thinking "oo" rather than "ee")
As far as breathing goes, be sure you're breathing deeply ("from your diaphragm"), so that you can feel your stomach expand. If you're taking shallow breaths ("breathing from your chest"), you're probably more likely to have issues with tension and being out of breath.
Hope some of this helps.
Post Edited (2015-08-10 09:37)
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Author: ibemusicman
Date: 2015-08-10 09:42
Wes
I definitely do long tones. Well... to the point where I'm not in too much pain so I can practice with what I have left, which is about 3 minutes worth.. I have a hard time not biting down on the mouthpiece, since my oral cavity and mouth are pretty small. As far as reeds go, the 3 1/2 Traditional Vandoren have been the most comfortable for me as far as free blowing, consistency in sound, and being to play in all registers comfortably. I will definitely experiment with mouthpiece intake!
Maxopf
Although the angles of my mouthpiece in the pictures are higher than I usually play, I would say my angle is much greater than 45 degrees. I will have to experiment long tones at a smaller angle in front of a mirror.
With the embouchure formation, i was always taught to "pull" my chin down and pull the corners. That's when the fatigued really started to come in, and I see that I may have had the wrong idea of "pull."
To add on to the breathing, I feel as though my airstream is not as fast as it should be, it also feels wide. How should I go about practicing a more narrow fast stream without the tension?
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-08-10 11:33
Attachment: Front.jpg (84k)
Attachment: Side.jpg (89k)
Attachment: Teeth Placement.jpg (110k)
I just flatten the lower lip against the bottom teeth (I do that by pulling the chin down and flattening it, but not with excessive force) and then bring the corners of my mouth inward towards the mouthpiece (not with excessive force either.) Sort of like saying the letter "O" but flattening the lower lip/chin so that the lip doesn't protrude. I think the main thing is to pull the corners inward not outward - if you pull them outward, you're much more likely to have issues with fatigue and air leaking out of the corners of your mouth, which it sounds like you are. Pulling them inward creates a better seal around the mouthpiece and is less tiring. I've attached pics of my embouchure.
For me, the airstream becomes faster and more narrow/focused with a higher tongue position (there are various ways people describe it... like blowing out a candle, or positioning the tongue like you were saying the word "whee" or "hee" or E, or blowing through a straw.)
I'm not exactly authority on any of this as I'm a comparatively inexperienced high school player, these are just pieces of advice I've learned from my private teacher and from my stay at Tanglewood that have helped me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-10 15:05
I would first recommend NOT getting obsessed with the embouchure as a fix for everything. I came to the conclusion after college for myself that an embouchure centered fixation WAS the cause of my lack of advancement and not the potential cure. I would further say that a small oral cavity is a boon for a wind player since what you want is a concentrated (focused) column of air.
But, back to the embouchure
From your images it seems to me that you have "corners" to your mouth. Well of course there will be leaking of air that way. I would recommend thinking of bringing those "corners" BACK and DOWN (really more down than anything). The result will make you look more like a parrot (wish I had a better analogy). You do this with your cheek muscles (buccinators). You feel your cheek muscles when you try to suck a really thick chocolate shake through a straw. Engaging the cheek muscles will make the sides of your mouth firm (like the chin area) up to about a half inch out from the lips.
If that's confusing, just think ROUND or AROUND the mouthpiece much like a rubber band exerting equal energy all around the mouthpiece.
But mainly I feel you are exerting WAY too much energy now. It is just up and down (like a clamp) and not taking the sides into consideration.
Just a moderate amount of energy is required for a great embouchure. Double lip should be a piece of cake if you are doing a single lip embouchure correctly.
Just R-E-L-A-X
(usually easier said than done but that's what you need)
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-10 17:24
ibemusicman wrote:
> Unfortunately, I have a hard time curling my upper lip to cover
> my top teeth. To get it to stay I have to really bite down, which
> is quite painful.
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Just a moderate amount of energy is required for a great
> embouchure. Double lip should be a piece of cake if you are
> doing a single lip embouchure correctly.
>
In my experience, forming a double lip embouchure does pretty much exactly what Paul has suggested. If actually playing double lip is painful, you might get the idea from just forming it, playing a few notes and then duplicating the feel but letting the upper lip out, keeping it against your upper teeth instead of under them. You can use double lip as a model for a single lip embouchure that takes the same approach.
Karl
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-08-11 04:35
I do not see anything out of the ordinary in your pictures and am wondering if there is some issue with breathing.
When I played oboe (thank goodness I went back to clarinet) I would get very fatigued and it seemed to me the issue was not enough of the breathed in air getting back out before it started to effect how I was playing. I would get tired and wool-y headed. One thing you hear oboe players doing a lot is breathing out during rests rather than breathing in like we would do on clarinet....just to get rid of the carbon dioxide that builds up in the lungs. I would even mark my music with - and + to plan where I would exhale or inhale. You might try breathing out small puffs from time to time as you play to see if the tiredness is effected. Worth a try, anyway.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-11 05:12
John that is a wonderful suggestion. I in fact breath out almost all the time (except during really loud passages).
But I would submit that the very first photo displays a wide, thin posture with well defined points at the sides of the mouth (almost in a smile). No one could prevent air leakage like this.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-08-13 04:37
For the time being conserve your embouchure muscle strength. In practice rest after 10 minutes. Intersperse just fingering sections of your practice material. ( no blowing) Try a different mouthpiece and reed for practice only. Perhaps a very close Vandoren mouthpiece like the Austrian models. .85 mm tip opening with an easy playing reed. I would not try to build your embouchure but just make sure you're not overdoing it. Save your performance setup for performance. Hopefully your present situation will improve with time.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2015-08-19 02:15
I am just a very keen amateur and couldn't manage double lip on clarinet until I started playing oboe. I was told to spread my nostrils to play double lip on oboe and found it works really well for me on clarinet now.
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