 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetplayer21
Date: 2015-07-18 03:27
Would it be possible to say, grab a piece of a living tree out of my backyard and make a clarinet out of it? or get a piece and let it dry then do it? i know it wouldnt last and wouldnt sound good but would it be possible in theory? if not a whole clarinet would say just a barrel and/or bell possible? complete random question but it made me wonder.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-18 03:51
You can make a clarinet out of anything you want within reason - so long as it has a cylindrical bore and toneholes coupled with a single reed mouthpiece, you have yourself a clarinet.
Whether or not the material you use will last is another matter, but you will have something resembling a clarinet with that criteria.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2015-07-18 05:19
I'm curious how different woods might do in a Greenline-style composite. Grenadilla has been historically used due to various good properties (machinable, more water resistant etc). If these are at all related to the grain structure, they are altered or destroyed when you convert it to powder and bind together in a resin. It could be that other woods might do just as well, or better, in such an application.
So if you've got a blender and some wood glue..
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-18 05:43
Having seen what can be done with wood-resin composites based on bamboo, I'd like to see a clarinet made from this material. The wood/bamboo composite is light, incredibly tough and lends itself to high quality machining. Bamboo is cheap, abundant, fast-growing and easily harvested.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-18 18:47
I think the green-line composite uses African Blackwood shavings just to say that it has African Blackwood in it. So I guess any sort of wood or color would work in a composite material.
But......
One of the reasons that we use a particularly hard and dense wood for wind instruments is because we affix metal parts to it with tiny screws. Have you ever tried to get a tiny screw to hold in a plaster wall? That is pretty much what you'd get with softer, less dense wood.
You can make a recorder out of pretty much whatever you want though.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-07-18 19:00
I think someone is already making very fine clarinets out of hard rubber.....but understand the urge to mess around and make your own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-07-19 07:27
>> I think the green-line composite uses African Blackwood shavings just to say that it has African Blackwood in it. <<
Probably also because they have a lot of it anyway and making clarinets from it turned out more profitable than whatever else they were doing with it before. Do they even need to get more wood/powder for the Greenline or maybe it's all made from "leftovers" they have anyway?
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-07-20 08:20
Apparently Morrie Backun does it all the time; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaXRb0VJlk
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
Post Edited (2015-07-20 08:24)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-07-21 07:06
* Grenadilla was chosen originally for clarinet production (before the days of plastic, rubber, and composite) because it maximized profit more than because it made great sounding clarinets. Grenadilla, as a hard wood that back in the day was plentiful, it breaks less frequently during machining (where time is money) and, as Paul says, took to screws well given this density.
* While Grendilla may be one of the better woods to make a clarinet out of, in this age, wood, at least in its original non ground down epoxy state, is hardly the ideal material to make a clarinet out of given the potential for shape change and cracking. There is nothing special about the sound one gets from Grendilla or Cocobolo. So speaking from a purely accoustical standpoint, (not a machining or shape changing one) one could consider the OP’s other woods. True though: material shape and strength can affect acoustics.
Now--before bboard members fairly get upset by this, pointing out how their Selmers, or MoBa's or LeBlancs, or Buffets (fair disclosure: owner of the latter) produce beautiful sound, let me say that I agree--but believe that to be a product of the craftsmanship that went into making the instrument, including things like bore design) more than the material it was made out of. Still more, I do not think these 2 aforementioned woods to be junk--not by any means. I am saying that other excellent materials are available today to not only produce clarinets of superb sound and durability, at cheaper cost, but that this price gap will widen as already short supplies of Grenadilla become shorter.
* By reliable source, Buffet uses the shavings from conventional clarinet making to make their Greenline so they can say that this product is composed of Grenadilla--as if shaving this stuff down doesn't change the inherent accoustical properties of this wood that were never there in the first place. This is done to not only command a premium for this product line, but not disparage their legacy 100% Grenadilla products. Looked at in reverse, I submit that Buffet could have pulverized many materials and epoxied them together to make a no less suitable material for composite clarinet production, but risked people saying, “so if there’s nothing so special about Grenadilla, why did/do you charge so much for these instruments all these years?” The fact that the shavings are already in supply is a secondary perk, offset ever so slightly buy Buffet having less wood shavings to heat their production facilities (no joke) in colder months of the year.
* "Yes, but plastic clarinets play terribly." Because limited craftsmanship is
put into most lines to keep production costs down and maximize profit given the price ceilings at which people will pay for these instruments. With no disrespect to Morrie Backun intended, does anyone think that if they ran a materials analysis of an otherwise strong instrument, his Alpha, which he describes as “a proprietary synthetic material chosen for its excellent tonal qualities,” that that they woudn’t find it bearing strong resemblance to plastic?
My predictions: the ever dwindling supply of good woods to make a stable cost effective instrument out of (primarily Grenadilla) will force manufacturers to make plastic and rubber instruments. Tom, (Ridenour) you’ve been right all along about hard rubber. They’ll call the plastic something else to command top dollar. Anyone that thinks Grenadilla isn’t increasing in price and decreasing in acceptable stock need look no further than not only Buffet’s Greenline product initiative, but the fact that the Prestige line of Buffets non Greenline clarinets has wood better than today’s R13, and comparable to that of golden age R13s.
No, not every material is suited for clarinet making. But many materials are cheaper and better at making clarinets than Grendilla, Rosewood, Tulip wood, or the alternative woods of this thread’s discussion.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-07-21 08:11
>> There are those very interesting solid glass clarinets, pretty rare, that were made by Buffet several years ago also. <<
Do you have a link for one? Or do you mean the plexiglass (transparent plastic) clarinets (is solid glass another name for plexiglass?)?
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2015-07-21 14:06
I helped pull this way off topic, sorry.
You'd want to look into the specific wood and see what kind of drying is used for woodworking, if any information is available. Even well behaved woods crack and check as they dry out.
A number of trees either have some toxicity in the dust or smell bad, for example Black Locust sounds interesting but is supposed to smell awful. I agree with the comment on mulberry. It seems very tough, but you might have trouble finding one big enough for a bell.
The bell gets much less humidity and temperature change abuse, and should up better. Would make a fairly easy turning project. For something you'd actually use, that sounds like the way to go. If it was more for decoration than use, the barrel would be fine too.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-21 15:25
*I understand* that most plastic clarinets are molded, so the bore has to be at least slightly conical (or reversed conical)- this was explained to me as one of the problems with "making a good one" out of plastic. Not that they HAVE TO BE molded, just that being able to mold the body was one of the reasons they'd use plastic to start with.... and that this compromised bore design
My plastic Vito has a great tone quality btw, really sounds very good.
Some years ago I was walking downtown and heard a school kid busking with a friend (I think it was clarinet and cello) and was blown away by the tone quality, I was in fact JEALOUS (at that time I had won an audition, and was on contract with NZs 2nd top orchestra... but i was just amazed by this schoolkid's tone quality). He was on a plastic Yamaha. Later that some boy did a performance degree and I played some gigs with him years later, but he sadly had to give up the clarinet due to severe illness.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-07-21 17:30
There is incredible potential to use Maurice Reviol's Cast bore technique and apply it to clarinets. Sorry I don't have a link on my phone. The process involves machining the inside diameter oversize. Then it is filled with Delrin, making it a solid piece. The piece is then remachined to correct dimensions, creating a Delrin flute with an outer layer of wood. This allows any reasonable wood type to be used and no risk of structural cracking.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-21 18:08
Tai Hei shakuhachis have cast resin bores, so this technique also used by Schreiber on their bassoons and oboes should be used on clarinets. The only current production clarinet with a cast resin bore to my knowledge is a Yamaha 450 Duet+ which has a cast top joint bore and integral tonehole linings like their 400 series Duet+ oboes (the 800 series having an ebonite bore insert and bushed toneholes). Other oboe makers offer lined bores, so more clarinet makers should do this - especially on cocobolo or rosewood instruments. Leblanc bushed the toneholes on their rosewood Symphonie VII clarinets, but didn't line the bore.
Lined bores aren't a new concept as shakuhachi makers have done this for centuries using lacquer and built it up to the required thickness for the optimal bore size and shape, then more recently bassoon makers lined the descending bores of maple bodied bassoons (with ebonite or resin) to prevent them getting waterlogged, distorted and also rotting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bandco68
Date: 2015-07-22 07:40
The school in England referenced by Silversorcerer would be wonderful to attend, not only for the clarinet construction class but also the clarinet barrel adjustment day. However, a trip to England is not currently in the cards for me. Is there any similar schools or classes in the USA?
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Author: bandco68
Date: 2015-07-22 07:42
The school in England referenced by Silversorcerer would be wonderful to attend, not only for the clarinet construction class but also the clarinet barrel adjustment day. However, a trip to England is not currently in the cards for me. Are there any similar schools or classes in the USA?
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-22 09:02
Maurice Reviol is a close friend of mine and will be at my place for a beer in about 1 hour and 10min, funny that you mention him! I helped him experiment with making clarinet barrels- and he wants to use the "cast bore" technique to give barrels more "integrity" (similar to the hard rubber lining, but he would do the "work" with wood and then the cast bore seals this). He'll be chuffed that his name came up when I tell him.
btw Maurice studied instrument making with Schreiber (making bassoons), has worked with Jochen Seggelke on making a bass clarinet prototype (more than a decade ago) and apprenticed under Francois Kloc!
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-07-22 09:47
I don't know Maurice, of course. But I have drooled over his flutes for a few years. I started playing irish fiddle about 10 years ago and always wanted to pick up flute. Having a technical sort of mind, I thought the cast bore technique to be extremely clever. And I like the way the Delrin stands out visually at the tone holes. Sort of like chocolate hiding inside the flute. . Plus the idea that you can use non traditional woods makes them doubly appealing. Maybe someday.
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Author: clarinetplayer21
Date: 2015-07-22 10:00
although most plastic clarinets are considered "Bad" not all are. i have a plastic one made by zonda and its acually pretty good. best plastic one i have ever heard. near perfect tuning.
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Author: azuka
Date: 2015-07-23 02:28
I've seen a youtube video of some guy on stage who took a carrot and drilled it out right there, added tone holes and then slapped a mouthpiece on it and started playing it. It was rather amazing and he sounded pretty good too.
In theory, you could make a clarinet out of any kind of wood, plastic, or other material you wished to. But getting wood out of some old tree in your backyard would be unlikely to yield wood suitably dense for a serious clarinet.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-23 04:12
Two quick points...
- Maurice does not use, or indeed like, Delrin. The bores/toneholes are not so much "lined" as "coated" with an epoxy composite.
- There's not much point speculating as to if this will create problems caused by variable expansion etc, as instruments have been made using this technique by Maurice and others for decades (just not any clarinets we know of). So far (to my knowledge) none have been returned cracked or with problems associated with the "cast bore" technique. Wood may, or may not, crack- regardless of moisture absorbtion, but this has proven effective in greatly reducing cracks in wooden flute head-joints.
Post Edited (2015-07-23 04:14)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-23 05:18
Various clarinet manufacturers over the years have made wood clarinets with metal-lined bores, and several with hard rubber lined bores. It doesn't, to my knowledge, lead to an increase in the incidence of cracking. Barrels have been lined with various materials also.
Tony F.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-23 08:03
Look I don't have time or energy to get into detailed discussion of something i didn't even bring up in the first place but I will make one last point.
the "cast bore" technique is not the same as "lining" the bore with rubber/delrin/metal.
Read the post by Chris P
Swildman meant well, but he incorrectly described the "cast bore" technique (which has been widely used for some years, just not on clarinets except for the Yamaha Chris P mentions).
For a "cast bore" lining, the wood is machined to accurate dimensions and then the interior is coated with a very very thin layer that is resistant to moisture. If this is done in a vaccum chamber it can be engineered that this protective coating is "drawn"... or "soaks"... into the wood (without a coating on the outside- don't ask me how this works, it was explained to me but it went in one ear and out the other, sorry). The end result is the the interior bore and inside of the toneholes are "coated" but not the exterior.
The end result is quite different from a "lined bore"
This is not in any way experimental- has been used for years. I don't know if there is any statistical research into whether or not it reduced cracks, but I do know that not a single head joint has been returned cracked, whereas for years this has been a problem for the production of wooden head joints (think of the problems with wooden clarinet mouthpieces....)
Post Edited (2015-07-23 08:32)
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Author: awildman
Date: 2015-07-23 17:31
http://www.reviol.co.nz/HTML/CastBoreFlutes.html#The_Idea
I haven't read this description for a few years but would have sworn his website mentioned the process I described above. I specifically recall a statement about the bore being filled with resin and then redrilled / reamed. I dont remember anything about coating. Certainly the thickness of the resin in the pictures would indicate filling(casting) and reaming. The Delrin thing may have been my addition due to visual association. Sorry if I confused anybody.
Regardless of technicalities and semantics I still love the idea and the looks and think the potential exists in markets beyond Irish flute.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-23 18:32
Rossi uses a delrin insert in the first four inches or so at the top of the clarinet. There are a number of folks doing the delrin lined tone holes too. I believe the Buffet Divine is one example.
...............Paul Aviles
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