 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-13 04:43
David, to the best of my understanding, there is a trademark infringement enforcement taking place.
Walter Grabner's previous "Kaspar" line is now called his "K" line.
Gregory Smith's model page simply states: "temporarily off-line for updates - it will be back very soon!" I believe his "temporary off-line" has lasted for or has surpassed 6 months.
So, to answer your question, I'm quite sure it's Grabner---only under a different model designation.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-13 05:00
So Dan,
What's the scuttlebutt? Is there a family estate lawyer or somethin' like that?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: James S
Date: 2015-07-13 05:04
Here are all the ones I can think of off the top of my head:
-Grabner's "K" series
-Fobes "Cicero" series
-Smith "Kaspar" model
-Lomax "Chicago" model
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-13 05:11
Paul,
I'm not sure I should get into this because there are reputations at stake and I don't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit.
I think it would be safer for me to simply say no more.
Sorry about that.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-07-13 05:16
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Gregory Smith's model page simply states: "temporarily off-line
> for updates - it will be back very soon!" I believe his
> "temporary off-line" has lasted for or has surpassed 6 months.
It was not offline for near that long and has been back on line for quite some time. http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-13 05:22
Hi Mark,
I just checked it again a few seconds ago and it's off-line on my computer.
Am I doing something wrong?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-07-13 06:03
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I just checked it again a few seconds ago and it's off-line on
> my computer.
>
> Am I doing something wrong?
Somehow your computer has cached the redirect to the off-line page. Delete the cached Gregory-smith pages and you'll be fine.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-07-13 06:08
Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. The whole site was offline for a short while, the model page still is, The model names are still being refined I believe.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-07-13 06:24
Both the name mark and logo of Kaspar and Chedeville are registered trademarks in the US, Canada, and the EU by the Golden-Henderson, llc. We are making mouthpieces labeled with these trademarks and have asked other makers to respect our trademarks in advertising and sales.
L. Omar Henderson, Ph.D, CEO, Golden-Henderson, llc
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-07-13 06:58
Ok. The Chedeville for sale now is not the original Chedeville. You just bought the name and put it on your mouthpieces?
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-07-13 07:29
Of course the original Chedeville mouthpieces milled from rod rubber were only produced between 1924 and about 1939. Charles Chedeville also supplied blanks to Henri Chedeville here in Philadelphia. Some origninal Chedeville made blanks were sold by LeLandais after WWII under their namesake and a few found their way to the Kaspars and a couple other makers in the 1950s.
We have spent years in reproducing, testing, and quality controlling our replica of the Chedeville rod rubber and measuring and then CNC milling reproductions of original Charles and Henri Chedeville antique mouthpieces. Other makers have produced their interpretation of old Chedeville mouthpieces and Brad Behn has produced his rendition of Chedeville rod rubber and also has his mouthpieces CNC milled to his specifications and artful interpretation of Chedeville and Kaspar mouthpieces.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-07-13 16:58
Did you get permission from the Chedeville and/or Kaspar estates?
I thought not.
Another abuse of the US trademark and patent laws...
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-07-13 18:04
You know, you always get the answer that you want when you answer your own question !!. Unless you know the facts and background it is wrong to besmirch the motives of a person or company in a public forum and damage their reputation. I believe they call it libel.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2015-07-13 20:14)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-13 22:02
I find this whole development somewhat troubling. But everyone involved is wonderful craftsman and a good person.
Any chance we could go back to way it was? Kaspar is dead. Let's try to honor his legacy and his fine work too.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-13 23:19
I have played one original 13, three refaced 13s and one original 14.
Of "replicas" I have played one Clark Fobes Cicero 13 and one Grabner K13 and G13 each. The Grabner MPs give more Kaspar vibes to me.
It is worth trying different ligatures. The difference in sound between the Rovner ligatures with and without metal is quite big.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-07-14 00:25
I hope that our requests to honor the trademark will soon bring about a better appreciation of the true stature of Chedeville and Kaspar.
I am not a mouthpiece artisan so I have little knowledge of what a true representation of the heritage of Kaspar and Chedeville might be but some noted mouthpiece makers have expressed interest in using the trademarks on what they think is the authentic Kaspar and Chedeville sound and playability in today's clarinet world.
Unfortunately these namesakes had become diluted by many mouthpieces in the maketplace using the name or the "style" so that everyone was confused with advertising using Kaspar and Chedeville and the namesakes had become somewhat insignificant.
There are those that feel that the material of the mouthpiece makes a difference in the sound and others that feel that architecture trumps all other aspects. Mouthpiece makers manipulate so many variables in making a mouthpiece that a mouthpiece from each maker is unique to that maker. It is not our wish to put constraints or exclude anyone who wishes to create their interpretation of an antique Kaspar or Chedeville mouthpiece.
This being said, we have invested a huge amount of time and money in recreating a replica of the Chedeville rod rubber which is very expensive to produce and the investment in measuring and creating CNC programs to mill this rod rubber and then scaling the process. We have also acquired examples of what some expert players consider excellent Chedeville (both Charles and Henri) mouthpieces and examples of the two Kaspar's done in different settings to use as models for recreations. In clearing the playing field, unfortunately using a lot of expensive attorney's fees and making some friends and makers angry, it was only our wish to once again elevate the namesakes to a more clear and higher standard of excellence.
(I hope this does not sound like a sales pitch but only a clarification of where we would like to see Chedeville and Kaspar used to the broadest segment of the woodwind community.)
We intend to collaborate with several mouthpiece makers and use these trademarks and logos on the best signature work of todays artisans while giving credit to the makers. We will sell Chedeville and Kaspar mouthpiece blanks CNC machined from our rod rubber to makers who wish to use them and collobrate with makers under a license agreement to use namesakes and an individual's exclusive logo on their work. We will also continue to sell our own recreations of Chedeville and Kaspar mouthpieces. We feel that our time and expense justify a return on investment. It remains to be seen if this will be a productive business model.
In this way we hope to revive and refresh this generation's experience with the Chedeville and Kaspar namesakes. We hope to not hide these candles under a bushel but let them shine.
L. Omar Henderson, Ph.D., CEO Golden-Henderson, llc
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-14 00:48
Point taken, but what if yours "doesn't do it" for Mr. So-and-so? Then that's it. In his mind Kaspar doesn't work. But it's not (nor could it ever be) an original Kaspar (not that all of his were that great either).
So maybe we should bury the name along with Chedeville and just live in the present. Maybe a hundred years from now a group of clarinet geeks will be paying $4000 for an original Henderson.
Just a thought.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-07-14 00:53
It was with great expectation that I ordered up the "new" Chedeville mouthpiece - a type 3, medium tip and lay, and a type 4, the more closed tip with medium lay. Boy, was I dissapointed! For me, they played like mouthpieces made of playdough. Totally dead and unresponsive. I was able to return the type 3, to help dissapoint someone else, unfortunately I still have the type 4 - due to neglecting the time-frame and missing my deadline for returns. I made contact with several reknown mouthpiece artists, who universally refused any opportunity to work on them - all calling them unworkable pieces. So, there I am - holding a very bad opinion of the "new" Chedeville. Maybe they live up to their own press, and have great rubber, but seems they don't yet know all that much of what the original artists knew about making an artisan piece.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-07-14 01:47
I'm both - Material AND Craftsmanship matter a lot.
Material that does vibrate, and of course the inner dimensions that make the thing play in the first place.
Same for Barrels, Ligatures, and Clarinets.........
There are acceptable materials which are not all Wood, though I am a believer that Wood has a special quality to it that can't be duplicated.
However Wood also is a complete pain in the A8S to work with.... A Mouthpiece can warp, wood drilling is a nightmare in general, and over time the wood changes some.
I could argue with Scientists, but I'm not one, I'm a player - but I do detect very, very small differences/nuances that a machine probably won't and can't.
It's what we do.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-07-14 02:15
AMEN, David.
We're not crazy. I know I can tell .05mm in a mouthpiece. I can feel an uneven lay. I've had people blindfold me and try various Chadash and Moennig barrels, and I can detect differences. Also, I really know a dog horn or mouthpiece when I try one, too! Played my various teachers' (way-way long ago) Kaspars and Chedevilles, and knew some had a great quality I've never known, but quite a few were pooches too.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
Post Edited (2015-07-14 02:18)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-07-14 07:13
To me, the impression is a case of trying to cash in on another's reputation. No matter the money and lawyers involved, these are not Kaspars. In some ways it only muddies the water even further. In my opinion it detracts from the great legacy left by both of these fine artisans.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-14 08:37
I thought it was quite good that Brad Behn stated on his website that his mouthpieces were "inspired" by the designs of Kaspar and Chedeville- on his older website he actually discussed elements of design in the various blanks he made, and how they related to classic mouthpieces. Whether this was in response to the threat of legal action or not I have no idea, but it was an honest and thoughtful move which certainly made it clear he was NOT claiming his mouthpieces were exact copies etc etc.
btw- I have not played one of Dr Hendersons mouthpieces, or one of the Firebird mouthpieces made from these blanks by Mike Lomax, but did have the pleasure of playing a Kanter mouthpiece owned by a Danish pro player just last week. It had a presence, and resonance, in the sound that did not come at the expense of losing "body" (as can easily happen when brightness is created/increased by a closer baffle with no lateral concavity) and sounded GREAT. Mr Kanter had created this mouthpiece from one of Dr Hendersons mouthpiece blanks.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-15 04:02
Hi there, by "lateral concavity" I meant a concavity from "side to side" on the mouthpiece baffle (as opposed to the "swoop" from tip to throat, which may for instance have an "S curve"). Most mouthpiece baffles have a lateral curve (concavity) even if only slight, but the more pronounced this is the brighter and "concentrated" the sound will be as a general rule. If you look at baffle in the Vandoren 13 series blanks you will usually see that this concavity I describe is at its most pronounced as it nears the throat (where the "swoop" is also often most pronounced on mouthpieces like the Zinner A style blank). If you compare that to a "non 13 series" Vandoren mouthpiece you will most likely also see far less of this concavity.
Of course there are a series of relationships between- lateral concavity, swoop, s curve at tip, width and angle of the throat, thickness of the step, total volume of the baffle/bore etc that will be negotiated by a mouthpiece manufacturer. But as a generalisation, the less concavity in the baffle the brighter the sound will be
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-07-15 23:55
I have though associated the Dr.'s line of those new Mouthpieces with a ton of research into what made those Mouthpieces great in the first place.
Would expect them to be very good (of course depending on who worked on them to make them great along with the material -material is nothing without great dimensions.)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-07-17 19:54
In the end you pays your money and takes your chances. Back in 1976 I needed a new mouthpiece for tenor sax because someone had ruined it on me. I went to the Saxophone Shop in Evanston which was a fantastic place and bought a Selmer alto. While there I told the owner how I needed a new tenor mouthpiece, the kind of playing I did, and he gave me a jazz mouthpiece designed by Herb Couf made out of hard rubber. I played it and it was a killer but it had a big nick on the inside rail. I demanded a perfect one, tried that and it was just dead sounding. We both agreed the one with the big nick sounded much better. I think I paid about $35 for it back then. You never know until you try a mouthpiece. Sometimes even a defect can make it better, who knows. I still play that mouthpiece, and it still sounds great, nothing like it made anymore. No two things in the world are exactly alike. That is a good thing.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-07-17 20:28
Larry -
I know this is off-topic, but Bob Black (Sax Shop) also sold me a Couf, but in '75. Those eere great pieces!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-07-18 01:57
Ken,
Robert Black ran a great store. The Couf he sold me for tenor was a J8*S which was a slim line piece with a very high baffle. If he had not mentioned it and suggested I try it life would have been very different. Sometimes you just get lucky with a mouthpiece. Sax or clarinet, you can have the world's best hard rubber, a great copy of a perfect mouthpiece, and all the dimensions just right, but no two pieces play the same.
Clarinet, Saxophones, and I own several flutes.
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Author: Midday
Date: 2015-07-19 03:37
In regards to Greg's website, the "models" page has been down for I think roughly four months. What it had on its page:
Chedeville 1*, 1, 1+, 1++ facings
Kaspar Chicago facing
Kaspar Cicero facing
Personal facing
Hardwood mouthpieces (available in any of the above facings)
I spoke to Greg a couple months ago about this page of his website and he mentioned "yeah - it's just too old. It's been like that for ten years, It has to be changed."
He mentioned though that he wouldn't be making any changes to the contents of the page, although that plan may have changed in the past couple of months. Hope that helps for those who may not remember
-Samuel He
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-07-20 22:31
I have 3 mouthpieces from Gregory Smith, and a Chadash barrel. They are all great. The page for the Chadash barrels is still up, but getting one is tied to also purchasing a mouthpiece from Mr. Smith which presents a problem when there are no mouthpieces listed. I hope that whatever the problem is gets straightened quickly, because he has great products and service, and is an exceptional individual who takes the time to answer questions.
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