 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Manwasp
Date: 2015-07-17 10:32
Greetings,
For the last 45 years I have played a lovely B&H Besson 35 clarinet. It has a great tone and I think the World of it. However, I've just been reading through some BBoards and realised that the material that my clarinet is made from is most probably asbestos filled Bakerlite.
Before I discovered little rubber mouthpiece pads I used to rest my teeth directly onto the mouthpiece and wore a couple of little grooves into the mouthpiece. Now I'm worried.
Does anybody know of any health impacts of playing asbestos filled Bakerlite clarinets? Should I stop playing it? I wonder too about the workers in the B&H factory in the UK. Is there a record of health problems here?
A little obscure, I know, but a massive risk to those of us old clarinettists or young'us playing old instruments.
The problem is that they sound so good and are so stable, they would be a great buy if they weren't a risk of killing one.
Just spent £120 on getting it serviced too and it plays beautifully.
Any comments gratefully accepted,
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-07-17 12:47
...sources? I've never heard of asbestos being used in Bakelite, let alone hard rubber or Ebonite.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-17 13:31
If it was made from asbestos and you've been playing it for 45 years, you'd have most likely known by now. Had you been breathing in fibres from the word go (as bits of the mouthpiece would have been worn off as you were playing), then they could easily be inhaled as you take a breath.
Have a read up on asbestosis and mesothelioma just to hopefully put your mind at rest:
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/asbestosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/mesothelioma/Pages/Definition.aspx
Bakelite or phenolic resin which a lot of early plastic clarinets were made from doesn't contain asbestos. Not only did B&H make clarinets from it, but also Yamaha, Vito, Bundy and others until the time they switched to the much less dense ABS resin. Yamaha still use Bakelite for their student line of mouthpieces and ebonite for their Custom series mouthpieces.
The broken ends of a Bakelite clarinet joint (where the tenons have sheared off) have a regular and granular appearance as opposed to a fibrous appearance which they would do if they contained asbestos fibres, plus the fact when they're burnt they leave no fibrous residue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-07-17 13:32)
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2015-07-17 17:16
If you have asbestos in your clarinet and have been diagnosed with Mesothelioma you may be entitled to substantial compensation. Please call the law firm of .......................
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-17 19:15
The same instrument as a B&H Regent, Rudall Carte Student, Rudall Carte Romilly Graduate, B&H 1-10, ...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-17 19:38
I'd give the wooden Regent a wide berth due to them having Mazak keys which is their Achilles heel. They're nice players as they have the same bore and tonehole layout as the Edgware, Emperor and Imperial 926 and the wood is pretty dense from this era, but the die cast keywork is a potential problem unless you can replace all the keys with those (in nickel plated nickel silver) from a donor Edgware of the same or similar era which will at least give them more longevity.
But if treated well and avoiding any situations where keys could get bent, wooden Regents with Mazak keys can last for decades.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-07-17 19:39)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-17 19:53
... forgot to mention that B&H clarinets from before around 1964-65 didn't have as many anchored pillars, so the RH ring key pillars can rotate due to the spring tension causing the keys to bind. Later B&H clarinets have far more anchored pillars where they need them.
You can tell the earlier design from the later one as the trill keys on the top joint have a single key guide on the later models, whereas earlier ones had two trill key guides - one complete guide for the top trill key and half a guide pillar (with a single lug) for the lower one. The keywork on them may be of the later or earlier design depending what was available as they were making the transition from old to new.
I just had a Besson Westminster come in for the binding RH ring key pillars and that had the later Reginald Kell-style keywork (adjusting screw on the top side of the throat G# cup arm, asymmetric longer C#/G# touch, long side Eb/Bb touch, ramp on RH ring key foot and cross hatched LH F/C touch) but had the early style set out with two trill key guides and not all that many anchored pillars, even though it had a 1963-64 serial number (20xxxx). My Series 2-20 from 1965 (234701) had all the later style pillars/guides and keywork. I've also got a B&H Marlborough (yet another Edgware by another name) and it has some od the older keywork (smooth LH F/C touchpiece), but the later style pillars/guides.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-17 20:03
Have a look at these photos of asbestos Bakelite:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/sarflondondunc/tags/amosite/
They clearly show the fibres embedded into the Bakelite on the fractured edges - the likes of which I've never seen on broken or machined Bakelite-bodied Regents or other Bakelite B&H clarinets or oboes or mouthpieces.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-07-17 20:08)
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Author: Manwasp
Date: 2015-07-20 00:41
http://asbestosvictimadvice.com/2012/07/asbestos-fibres-in-plastics-production-prior-to-1980s-ban/
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2015-07-20 20:38
If THIS isn't a "First World Problem", I don't know what would be...
Reminds me of the meme with the woman holding her forehead.
;)
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2015-07-21 20:49
Next it'll be that the instrument wood should REALLY be non-GMO...
;)
Or that reeds REALLY need to be organic.
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: Manwasp
Date: 2015-07-22 04:27
Well, making comments "like we have no proof" doesn't give me any cheer. The only proof I have was when the clarinet was being sold to me, the chap in the shop said that the clarinet was made from sonorite, which is a kind of plastic filled with something, maybe asbestos, which is why it's heavier than the Regent.
Asbestos was used as a filler and strengthener for Bakerlite in everthing from electrical components to telephones to radios and I have no reason to doubt its use here. The fibres would be finely divided so you wouldn't be aware of them.
On another tack. The Besson 35 was built better and sounds much better than the Regent. The keywork on mine is in excellent shape. The tone is very good indeed - it may be the fact that it was copied from the 926 or the density of the asbestos filled Bakerlite. I had a choice of the second hand Besson or the new Regent. There was no contest.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-22 04:44
I have never seen any evidence that Bakelite was used in clarinet production. It would have been used in certain industrial applications where its mechanical and physical properties might be an advantage, but those conditions do not exist in clarinets. I have seen Bakelite reinforced with wood fibres, but not in instrument making. Bakelite was used only until better plastics came along. I don't think your Besson 35 presents any sort of health hazard. I've never heard of asbestos-related diseases among musicians.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-22 04:51
Depending on when the Regent was made, they're either wood with Mazak keys (1950s), Bakelite with nickel plated nickel silver keys ('60s to late '70s) and ABS resin with nickel plated nickel silver keys (late '70s to the mid '80s when production stopped).
B&H also machined Edgware Bb and A clarinets from solid PVC (with ebonite tonehole chimneys), offered Emperor Bb clarinets with moulded Bakelite bodies (so they're essentially Regents with silver plated keys) and their Imperials and 1010s were offered with machined ebonite bodies.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-07-22 05:53
Manwasp wrote:
> The fibres would
> be finely divided so you wouldn't be aware of them.
While that MIGHT be true somewhere (I can't prove the negative, unfortunately), I actually have some pretty extensive experience remediating asbestos-filled Bakelite insulators (and asbestos lagging) while refitting a ship while I was in the Navy. Those insulators and other parts (phase matching wheels, relay bases, meters) I removed were obviously fiber filled if they had cracked - many were since the ship I worked on was built in the late 40s and the Bakelite had become brittle with age - the fibers were doing their job and keeping the plastic in one piece and were visible internally. If one were to take a file to it (as in finishing a mouthpiece) it would have raised a "fur." I removed a lot of asbestos lagging and replaced it with less harmful materials, too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-23 02:33
Norman Smale would be the best one to ask as he used to work at B&H. Not sure if he's actually read this thread or not - I suspect not as he hasn't commented.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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