 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-07-13 21:19
Half way playing a gig last night in an outdoor amphitheater in Corpus Christi, TX, I noticed my Lyrique running notably sharper compared playing on my Prestige (all other things being equal) in hot, humid conditions. My Ridenour is a beautiful instrument and delivers way past the hype. I cannot say enough nice things about it. Being sharper than even the french horns and piccolo (is that even possible?) is a mild inconvenience and intonation problems happens to us all. I was using the 66mm barrel that Tom supplies with the horn. Of course I pull out and all was well. But my ultimate pitch is higher compared to the Buffet. Both normally are spot on.
As anyone had the same experience? Perhaps the rubber material keeps increasing in pitch and takes longer to 'max out or warm up' the pitch compared to Grenadilla. The bottom line for me is...It is what it is. I can always get a longer barrel from Tom, but unless I'm a victim of it being hotter than hell, I don't want to start a hunt for different barrels.
Thoughts?
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-13 21:53
Ultimately it is the internal temperature, the temperature of the AIR COLUMN that determines the pitch. All I can think is that the hard rubber exacerbates (or traps) the heat more than wood.
A longer barrel for those situations is the ticket.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-07-13 21:55
That's brilliant Paul. The ebonite doesn't 'breath' like a wood does. It's a good theory and makes complete sense.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-14 04:24
I like your idea.
I believe a white rubber clarinet would resolve the sharper tuning in hot climates. It appears that when they add the "black" coloring material, they increase its ability to absorb and transmit heat.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-07-14 06:19
Hi,
Dealing with the change in pitch with woodwinds in the summer is always a challenge. Here is an excellent article on the subject.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-pitchchange.htm
While there is a detailed explanation and some very neat equations, the long and the short of it (or should I say the high and the low of it) is:
"For a one-degree increase in temperature the speed of sound increases by 0.6 meters per second. Expressed in percentage that is 0.6 / 343.5 = 0.00175 = 0.175%. A semitone is a 5.95% change in frequency. Since 0.175 / 5.95 = 0.03, we expect a pitch change of about 3 cents for each one-degree Celsius change in temperature with woodwinds. Remember, a "cent" in this context is one hundredth of a semitone, just as a semitone is one twelfth of an octave."
So a change in temperature above, shall we say using 72 degree F. of 10 degree C (or 18 degree F) to 90 degrees F would change the pitch 30 cents.
I have a 68 mm barrel for such days and usually have to pull it a little bit.
HRL
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-07-14 06:52
The longer barrel supplied with my Lyrique Libertas actually measures only 65 mm and the shorter is about 62 mm. If you are using MPs pitched at 442, like the standard Vandorens, you will have to pull quite a bit, even on the 65 mm barrel. The M13 can work with the shorter barrel in a cold situation, but tunes well with the longer one supplied, normally.
I like my 5RV-lyre and M30-lyre (both non-13 series). I ordered one of Tom's 66 mm barrels in a "C" bore and it brought the pitch down considerably. The 67 mm was an overkill and I could barely get the throat tones up to pitch, unless well warmed up in a warm room.
As far as more sensitive to high temperatures, that has not been my experience, but there could be something interesting happening, and it might be true to some extent, or perhaps the opposite is true ... more research is due. I'd think that hard rubber would have less thermal mass and therefore warm up and cool off faster than some other materials.
Tom Ridenour stated that the pigment used to make hard rubber black does not help the sound, and that perhaps a natural, cream colored rubber might yield even better results.
Sounds like a good subject for a thesis ... if it hasn't already been done.
Tom
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2015-07-14 08:04
I have a Lyrique and three tuning barrels (Tom's fat ones).
They are 65mm 64mm & 63mm.
In cold weather I must use the 63mm.
Mild to warm weather the 64mm
Very seldom need to use the 65mm.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-14 08:46
Today in Ingleside, TX, the high temp was 90 degrees with a humidity of 82%.
I began to wonder about the speed of air in humid air and found out the following: "Sound waves travel only a little bit faster in humid air".
Source: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm
(Note: scroll down to RED lettered words in box.)
I had thought that there would be a fairly large difference between dry and humid climates but that is not the case. The high temperature in the bore of the clarinet appears to be the main reason for higher than normal pitches.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-07-14 09:29
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Today in Ingleside, TX, the high temp was 90 degrees with a
> humidity of 82%.
>
> I began to wonder about the speed of air in humid air and found
> out the following: "Sound waves travel only a little bit faster
> in humid air".
>
> Source:
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm
> (Note: scroll down to RED lettered words in box.)
>
> I had thought that there would be a fairly large difference
> between dry and humid climates but that is not the case. The
> high temperature in the bore of the clarinet appears to be the
> main reason for higher than normal pitches.
>
With the moisture (and condensation) from breathing, the humidity of air in the clarinet should be near 100%, so outside humidity is hardly a factor.
A bit paradoxically, humid air is lighter:http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/wdensity.htm
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Author: kthln.hnsn
Date: 2015-07-14 10:08
Happens to me. Tonight at rehearsal it was very very warm in the room and my barrel was pulled out about 3.5 mm. In any other situation, even air conditioning, it plays in tune nearly perfectly. But that's the only downside I can think of so I guess if pulling the barrel out 3.5 mm in hot conditions is the worst of it then I'm doing ok. Liked all the good and interesting info you all provided, sorry mine wasn't so scientific hehe
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2015-07-14 18:55
Clav wrote: "With the moisture (and condensation) from breathing, the humidity of air in the clarinet should be near 100%, so outside humidity is hardly a factor."
Yeah, I thought about that. Then I remembered living in Tucson where the humidity is around 5% at times. The moisture on my skin evaporated immediately. (I actually was hospitalized for dehydration. Not a fun experience.)
So, although I can't prove it, I believe the air column in the bore of the clarinet when the humidity is extremely low is far, far lower than 100%. It evaporates into the air immediately, IMHO.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-07-15 03:29
Hi,
One thing I forgot to mention was that when adding a longer barrel or even pulling out, the middle section and even the bell should be pulled a little bit (tough if you have an articulated G#/C# key). However, since the placement and design of the tone holes is logically a compromise any departure from the "norm" whatever that is will likely play havoc with the ratios. Perhaps an acoustical engineer could explain this more elegantly.
My thinking is that in extreme situations of heat or cold, one "has to make the best of a bad situation" and do what seems best. I have had the misfortune of working with conductors - most often brass players - who just don't get it about woodwinds. It's not as easy as just "pull out or push in."
Cheers,
HRL
Post Edited (2015-07-15 14:42)
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