 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cjb206
Date: 2015-07-06 10:28
Recently I've noticed many dealers selling harmony clarinets aimed at the student/beginner market. Some are obviously aimed at lowering the age/physical barriers to learning the clarinet such as Eb chalameau's, or reduced keywork instruments (thus making lighter, easier for finger hole coverage), Kinder Clari's are an example. Some are perhaps just cheaper.
I wondered what other people's thought's as educators might be towards these new instruments and whether the aim to shift downward (age wise) was truly beneficial in term of childhood development, and securing good technique.
It has also led me to investigate a plastic C clarinet to use in my primary school orchestra. I have a really mixed bag of players, both wind and strings, and always write and arrange things for them that suit their abilities. However, the key signature issue for my Bb clarinettists is always a drag. Its the age old story of beginner groups: violins love to play in D and G leaving the beginner clarinetist (and I mean a 9-11yr old in their first year), struggling to count all their sharps or playing uninspiring parts.
So I bought a plastic C clarinet for about £200, likely made in the far east but stencilled and sold by Gear4Music. It really worked arrangement wise. And the child I gave it to was having a great time playing all different parts in easy keys, and he found it lighter, easier to blow and adequately covered the finger holes even for the clarion register (something a great deal of 9-11yr olds will find developmentally challenging) - exactly the kind of learning experience that I want for the children.
But as I sort of expected, after a few rehearsals, the mechanism deteriorated and started to perform less well, and its tuning tendencies (compounded by the beginner embouchure) made it all but unplayable with the ensemble.
I know there is wisdom to keeping wind and strings separate for this and many other reasons at this developmental stage. But I'm more interested in the overall learning experience being one of getting all able and talented musicians together to play, sing and perform. My experience of concert bands at music centres is that the standard gravitates to the centre ground of the random assortment of players choosing wind instruments.
I really wish there were a buffet, jupiter, yahama, Vito Selmer; that would manufacture a sturdy, well tuned plastic/ABS/hard rubber C clarinet aimed at the educational institution market for under £400 ex VAT - I could easily make the economic case for snapping up a fairly big order.
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 10:46
Ridenour has a C clarinet, but perhaps its' too expensive for your aim.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/ACclarpg.html
I've always wanted to play around with one.
Regards
Peter
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Author: greenslater
Date: 2015-07-06 10:53
Last year I started my first student on an Eb kinder clarinet. I had picked it up cheap second hand and thought it might be useful. Although the teaching environment, private lessons is quite different to your ensemble experience it did allow her to start earlier than with a regular Bb clarinet. Yes the intonation on the kinder clari leaves a bit to be desired; I found that it was light enough and with smaller, easy to cover, finger holes. As it was easier she quickly experienced success and it just provided an in between step rather than just starting on Bb which she has now transitioned to. Biggest headache for me however, was trying to sight transpose piano accompaniments!
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Author: cjb206
Date: 2015-07-06 11:51
thanks for your reply Greenslater. I think that's really encouraging that actually the experience of Kinder Clarinet was a positive progression instrument. Do you think that it was more beneficial than say learning recorder (with all the obvious flaws and advantages) or having more musicianship/singing based lessons?
We also do a whole class clarinet project where (rightly or wrongly) we give a class of 30 a clarinet each for a term, and do whole class lessons. Not much is achieved technique-wise but we embed some fundamentals and have a reasonably high continuation rate for kids who go on to small group/individual lessons (about 35-45%). I have often thought that using a full mechanism Bb clarinet for this is not ideal and that using an Eb Chalameaux at say age 7-8 would be productive (less to break, little or no setting up, not worrying about overblowing as much or hitting extra keys, small fingers not covering/reaching).
Have to say that with the variety of different instruments I teach and transpositions out there (including mini bassoons in G!) I've given up on sight transposing - have found a decent digital keyboard and am very friendly with the transpose button!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-06 12:31
I can't honestly see why Schreiber who already make the B12 can't offer a plastic C clarinet. They make the E11 C clarinet anyway so there's no real reason why they can't offer an affordable plastic C clarinet in the shape of a B12 C clarinet (and for around the same price) as that will be much better for primary school kids to start out on as they can play the same Concert Pitch music as their peers who play recorder, flute, violin, piano, ukulele or guitar and classroom tuned percussion so they can all play from the same music.
At least it ought to be better made than the average Chinese C clarinet and will also make the C clarinet more popular and affordable to others that want one with the same spec as their other Boehm system clarinets but haven't got the funds for a more expensive wooden one, or don't want a Lyons/Nuvo as they're too basic and don't feel right or a Chinese C clarinet which may not be well built or finished from the start.
I realise it's a question of economics in making the injection moulds for the joints, but the keywork is already being made for the E11 which should go straight onto them (as the E11 and B12 keywork is identical) and the cost of all that can be recovered if they are popular like the B12 Bb clarinet is.
(Also, why not offer an affordable plastic B12 A clarinet while we're at it?)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 13:13
We're probably victim of our own eternal "material matters" debate, so for a manufacturer it doesn't seem to make sense to run a "plastic" line when no one will buy it...
This, or they don't want to cannibalise wood sales with instrument that - despite all marketing mumbo jumbo - more or less sound the same as their more expensive wooden brethren.
--
Ben
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Author: cjb206
Date: 2015-07-06 14:57
I'm glad some others can see the advantages to C clarinet in primary school setting and how it may promote playing inside curriculum music. One of Ofsted's big criticism's of music in the classroom in the UK, was that not enough was done to encourage instrumentalist to use their instruments alongside tuned and untuned classroom percussion. But to an untrained classroom teacher using a scheme of work that deals only with instruments pitched in C, transposition must seem like rocket science - the result being a polytonal din!
I think the experience of the Lyons C clarinet and Clarineo has scarred some of my older clarinet colleagues locally, who roll their eyes the minute I mention anything vaguely like it. For some the only format for a clarinet lesson worth teaching is 1 on 1 30mins, with a well funded middle class kid, playing on a buffet with VD mouthpiece and reeds. My fear is the swinging cuts to music education will start to erode the accessibility of the clarinet to a vast number of potential musicians.
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Author: cjb206
Date: 2015-07-06 15:01
I completely agree on the B12 A clarinet - just another bar on entry to symphonic playing. Leave's otherwise talented kids unable to access certain music. And the 2nd hand market in old A's is not cost effective alternative usually. B12 pair of clarinets for £800-900 would be such a great product.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-07-06 19:12
tictactux said: "...they don't want to cannibalize wood sales with instrument that - despite all marketing mumbo jumbo - more or less sound the same as their more expensive wooden brethren."
Boy, you've said a mouthful. This is a problem for any producer of anything- cars, cameras, software. If your cheap product performs just about as well as your pricier one, you are in trouble.
I would not put it past a mfg to deliberately gum up the intonation of the cheaper product to maintain a performance difference between price points, even if it saves nothing in mfg costs, or even if it costs more to make. That kind of thing happens all the time in other arenas. Is it "fair"? Should it be illegal? Depends on your politics.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-07-06 19:13)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 19:21
There are some very interesting comments here that brought back memories of my years teaching in an urban school district.
The teaching situations in which I found myself were quite different from those presented in college music education courses. Because of scheduling difficulties in one school, I was forced to teach young wind and string students in the same class at the same time. I arranged all our music for concerts, and would spend time teaching young string players to play in F major and young clarinet and trumpet players to play in D major. In another school, I had to mix recorders and winds, and again compromises had to be made.
The idea of a C clarinet for young students has a lot of merit, and I can see how it could be very useful in many situations. I wonder, though, how you deal with 3rd line B natural and 3rd space C# in your orchestra, notes that are very common and very easy for young string players, but difficult for young clarinet players.
Do you also have saxophones and trumpets in your group? Using C trumpets might make things easier in some ways, but again, 3rd line B natural and 3rd space C# are more difficult for young players than B flat and C natural.
I can imagine trying to perform a piece in D major with a young group that includes E-flat alto saxophones! I have no experience with saxophones in C, but I don't think there would be any serious fingering issues for young players.
CJB206, I give you tremendous credit for what you're doing. We don't have Ofsted inspections in the U.S., although we have evaluations of schools and teachers that might be somewhat similar. I often have the feeling that those doing the evaluating have no idea how challenging it is to teach a diverse mixture of instruments to a class of young children (especially winds and strings at the same time!). If some of the inspectors or evaluators had to do all this rewriting, arranging, and teaching, they'd be gone in a day.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-06 19:40
Maybe Schreiber have realised their E11 Eb clarinet is very popular and by producing a plastic version (B12 Eb clarinet anyone?) may compromise its popularity and people would maybe opt for the less expensive plastic alternative if it was available and played as good as its wooden counterpart.
I can only assume sales and popularity of B12s outstrip that of E11s and many players upgrading may even bypass the E11 altogether and go for an E13 or R13, unless they happen to get an E11 as their first clarinet. That's only a guess on my part as I'm not a statistician and have no access to Schreiber's sales figures of Boehm system clarinets.
Even Vito could possibly offer a plastic C clarinet based on the Leblanc LL or more likely Noblet C clarinet - you know it'll be built like a tank if they did, so that level of durability would only count in its favour.
All hypothetical I know, but why not put it into practice? Apologies if I've been talking off the top of my head on this, but surely there is a market for a decent plastic C clarinet that feels and plays like a quality instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-07-12 18:42
Amati made a plastic C in recent history, apparently nobody wanted it because they don't make it anymore? Actually I wanted one but it was hard to find.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-13 09:55
Here in NZ the main woodwind store got in a rental fleet of Amati C clarinets, and these are very popular with 2 or 3 teachers in Ak, popular enough that demand exceeds supply- this is a problem now that Amati no longer makes their plastic C clarinet, and the other options are either too expensive (Ridenour/Buffet) or of very poor quality.
My experience with the plastic Amati C clarinets was that it worked very well teaching beginners aged 8/9/10. Because the mouthpiece was the same size as a B flat mouthpiece, the student could get an after market mouthpiece in the first 6 months (Hite/Lomax/Yamaha student mouthpieces) so that their first few years would be 1) on the same mouthpiece and 2) they had a sense of ownership. The mouthpieces that came with the Amati clarinets were very stuffy and bright sounding.
If you search this BB you will find another thread where I write about a colleague who has one of the Amati "intermediate level" C clarinets that has been pimped up and is a very good horn. I now have one of these, and with a little adjustment was able to improve the intonation to a level that is probably a bit better than an R13 B flat. As with the E flat clarinet some different fingerings are required in the Altissimo.
dn
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-13 15:07
Duplicate post.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-07-13 15:16)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-07-13 16:34
How about the instruments from the "new" Martin Freres company? They offer the standard range of soprano clarinets now Eb, C, Bb, A- student level (hard rubber) and up at reasonable prices.
Post Edited (2015-07-14 04:30)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-13 19:08
"But I ideally want a Selmer full Boehm C clarinet - I've found one for sale but the seller seems to be a bit elusive.
Chris."
The Australian site of that well-known auction service have a Buffet Prestige full Boehm C up for auction. Not a Selmer though.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-13 20:55
Unfortunately that RC Prestige C clarinet is only a basic 17 key 6 ring Boehm system (and it's far more than I'm willing to spend as well as being a Buffet) - I'm after a fully loaded, all singing, all dancing 20 key 7 ring full Boehm C clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-07-14 01:33
Beautiful work on that C clarinet, Chris! You are one of my heroes!
I bought a Forte C clarinet with two barrels recently on auction for a great price. On receiving it, I found that it was quite flat, perhaps a quarter tone or more. The fine like new white Italian leather pads were the culprit, leaking through the skin and not sealing enough. After putting new cork pads on the upper joint, it has very good intonation, with a few flat notes in the altissimo, easily corrected by fingering.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-07-14 05:21
"Unfortunately that RC Prestige C clarinet is only a basic 17 key 6 ring Boehm system (and it's far more than I'm willing to spend as well as being a Buffet) - I'm after a fully loaded, all singing, all dancing 20 key 7 ring full Boehm C clarinet.
Chris."
It certainly is, Chris. Must have had my brain in neutral. Perhaps I need new glasses.
Tony F.
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