 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonDoe
Date: 2001-05-01 23:16
In some recent e-mail exchanges, I found -- with evidence -- that Mark Charette DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!!! I sent him a ''christian'' e-mail message, and he said that he was agnostic (one who believes that there is NO proof that God exists), and he has said that he doesnt believe in God.
--Just to let you know
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Author: Rina
Date: 2001-05-02 00:21
Actually, an agnostic believes in God, but doesn't prescribe to a particular religion. Athiests are the ones who don't believe in God.
BTW, this is the internet, and you should really be more tolerent of other people. Not only that, but surely you shouldn't be trying to sway a chat group about CLARINETS on an issue that has nothing to do with technique, and instruments.
If you want to spread intolerence, go do it on the hate mail pages
For the record - I am a Christian, I just don't like seeing people slammed for their views.
R
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Author: Mike Irish
Date: 2001-05-02 00:28
Jon Doe...
So what..... that may be something he doesnt share with every one.... and may not have wanted it shared with every one.....
I do, and I share my faith, this is a Clarinet site, where in the chat room we talk about clarinets and music..... I do send blessings at times.... but when I am here, am in the process of learning more about music..... when I wish to chat about my faith, I find sites where the people are there for that reason, to find information, to learn more about God...... but I prefer to go face to face, one on one with my faith, I get better feed back and learn more as I do..... I am self employed and have the oportunity to speak with any where from one to some times 8 families aday in our area.....
I had a friennd that one day told me at work ( years ago ) that told me to chill out, that work was not the time nor place ( while working, and not on break ).... told me he was not interested..... found later he was trying to teach me a lesson.....
and I was able not only to keep the job, but also found that I was able to be a better wittness because I was doing a better job cause I was not getting side tracked.....
God Bless you Jon Doe... and Keep you in His Loving arms, rocking you gently to sleep at night and guiding you thru the paths thru out your days.......
Mike
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-02 01:05
ACTUALLY----an agnostic is someone who believes that our human minds are not capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and that therefore there is no way of proving it. Hence, they neither believe or disbelieve in God. = =my understanding of the term agnostic
and..just to check myself, the dictionary definition (from webster) is:
"one who denies that man possesses any knowledge of the ultimate nature of things; one who neither affirms nor denies the existence of God."
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Author: LIZZIE
Date: 2001-05-02 01:39
uumm.... who cares? that is really rude of you to discuss that with everyone he may have wanted to keep that secret! I am only 13 and I know that. And what does that ? have anything to do with clarinet's? i mean i have heard some pretty strange ?'s but this one is the WORST! How would you like it if someone on this message board said you uuumm......were a freak? You wouldnt like that now would you? My point exactly! Hope I helped knock some simce into you
Signed,
Elizebeth or you can call me Lizzie!
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-05-02 02:01
Lizzie,
For 13 you sure can set some of us OLD folks straight! I couldn't have said it better.
Mr. "B"
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Author: Graham Golden
Date: 2001-05-02 02:17
Lizzie!!! RIGHT ON!!!
Jon Doe,
Who cares??? that is his own business. Why would you tell anyone. That is something, just like ANYTHING else people are entitled to tell whom ever they want. Not everyone believes in God, and not everyone believes in the Christian God. Does that make you a bad person??? NO. If you are truly a Christian why would you care??? you should have unconditional love anyway. Is that not the way of Christ??? Did God not give us free will??? any way. Mark is an incredible human. If he worshiped lizards I would not care. Belief in God is something that is very personal and is discovered, or disregarded on a personal basis on personal experiences. It is in no way our place to judge anyone, especially Mark. That was an extremely rude thing to do. Why would you do such a thing??? you call your self Christian???
its not the middle ages, the INQUISITION is over, you don't have to uncover and public denounce or persecute "Heretics."
This is a Clarinet Boarded, NOT a theological boarded. There are plenty of those out there. I'm sure they will find your complaint quite interesting, although I doughty few would care. Maybe there are some protestant denominations that think this might be evil, but im Christian and I sure don't.
I'm sorry if I seem upset. I am a bit. Its just, its not anyone's place to talk about others in this way. and in no way is it your right, or anyone else's to do what you did. There is NO PROOF there is a God, and NO PROOF there is not a God.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-05-02 03:02
Hi. Yes, that was rude of you, but, for the record, correct. Christianity is but one of many religions in the world - would it have been just as "bad" for you were I Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or one of the many other religions of the world? My, how parochial you are.
What I did, for the record also, was to ask Mr. Jon [sic] Doe to take me off his list of recipients of religious messages, since I get many messages as it is. He replied that I musn't be a "Christian", and I answered that he was correct, I was agnostic (your definitions above are correct, too).
Back to clarinetting ...
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Author: Graham Golden
Date: 2001-05-02 03:54
Mark, You are right there are MANY other religions in the world. All with their pros and cons, and each with valuable lessons to teach. and believe me Christianity has many cons and pros as does all the other major world religions. IM sorry for ONLY refering to Christianity, that was sensless of me. In the end we are all human, and we are all struggling just to get through day to day life. Some find religion. We all have found the clarinet as a way to express our selves and make life, weather it be one of many or the only one, a bit more enjoyable.
Graham
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-05-02 06:59
JonDoe,
May the Lord bless and keep you ... FAR AWAY FROM ME! :}
James 1:26 "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."
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Author: Karel Vahala
Date: 2001-05-02 07:25
Rina's definition of "agnostic" is not correct. The Oxford English Dictionary defines an agnostic as "one who holds that the existence of anything beyond material phenomena, e.g. of a First Cause, or of noumena, cannot be KNOWN."
A "noumenon" (pl. noumena) is a term introduced by Kantin contrast to "phenomenon". In Kantian philosophy "an object of purely intellectual intuition, devoid of all phenomenal attributes". Thus an Agnostic is a person who does not KNOW whether God exists, as different from an Atheist, who believes God does NOT exist. The specificity of a religion is, for an Agnostic, irrelevant.
I agree with all the others here. Religion is between an individual and his maker, if there is one. Jon/Doe , with his anonymous bravery, is totally out of line with his throwaway email, and deserves higher intervention to stuff up his email facility for a while. Disgusting.
Karel.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-05-02 14:33
I would not have believed this post if someone told me. Then, again, there are many weird ones in the Net.
Back to clarinetting ...
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-05-02 15:56
Jon Doe, As Christ said to the woman caught in adultry, "GO, AND SIN NO MORE". Please notice the first word.
Bob A
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-05-02 16:04
Mark, I'm glad you are easygoing enough to get a laugh out of this.
I am impressed by all the Sneezyites who came to your defense with their common sense.
This has little to do with religion and more to do with control issues on the part of Mr. Doe. His was a mean-spirited posting designed to rile some of us against you. I'm happy it backfired.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled clarinet discussions...
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2001-05-02 16:55
Wonder why he doesn't feel comfortable using his real name while spreading the word?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-05-02 17:06
I am glad this message was posted on the net.
It shows that most of the people on this BB have their act together...
Mark is the reason why this BB exists, as well as sneezy, the Klarinet mailing list among other things. This is all that should matter to us and I am glad everybody understands that.
I take this opportunity to thank Mark for his immense work and dedication to the e-clarinet community which would be non existent without him.
-Sylvain
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2001-05-02 17:16
JonDoe--
Thank you so much for the enlightenment! The scales (so to speak) have fallen from my eyes! Not since Professor Harold Hill has there been a warning of such importance!
At last we see the cause of so much disharmony (so to speak) in the world: An agnostic--an AGNOSTIC!--is running the premier clarinet Internet bulletin board, promoting the Devil's own instrument.
I see it so clearly now. The siren song of the clarinet, that TEMPTS us to learn to play it. The many difficulties in learning to play that cause us to CURSE (or worse). And pushing the register key causes the clarinet to play up a 15th, not an octave like any regular, God-fearing instrument. It's black, like a witch's cat. The most coveted clarinet has the number 13 as its model designation. Is this coincidence? I think not! There's even evidence in another recently discovered Dead Sea scroll that the "apple" of Garden of Eden fame was a mistranslation and that the "instrument" of mankind's downfall was actually an applewood clarinet (a very, very, very early Boehm system).
I shall cast away this evil instrument and take up the trumpet--Gabriel's instrument, and the instrument that brought down the walls of Jericho.
Or maybe I'll just go take a nap.
---------------------------
Sorry, gang, couldn't resist. I have great respect for those who (like agnostics) are searching for answers, and for those who have found an answer for themselves--whether that answer is "religious" or not. The "JonDoe" True Believers, however, while funny, are also scary (ask any Planned Parenthood doctor).
The replies to this thread by my fellow clarinetists is heartening. There may be hope for us yet.
In closing (Who said, "Finally"?), let me thank Graham Golden. Graham, on behalf of all the lizard worshipers--Saurians, a much-maligned minority--I thank you for your enlightened tolerance. May the Great Gecko bless you.
Todd W. (Did you know it's hard to play the clarinet with tongue firmly in cheek?
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Author: Jeff
Date: 2001-05-02 18:13
Mark,
You owe no one an explanation. Here in Idaho I am considered a flaming liberal pagan (actually, I'm Episcopalian) and so get my share of threats of eternal damnation from concerned Christians as well.
Jeff
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-05-02 20:51
In my folk's neighborhood, I overheard this discussion at the Post Office,
"Where y'all from?" - A
"North Carolina." - B
"Well hey, brother!" - A
"Where do you church?" -A
"Timmons Holler." - B
"That's Fine, good Baptist folk there." - A
"Yup, I'm one." - B
"I knew you were an upstanding man, when I saw you." - A
"Thank you, brother." - B
"So which are you, Southern or Southern Reformed?" - A
"Why, Reformed, of course brother." - B
"You best jump heathin! Ma! Go an git mah gun!" - A
Zealotry knows no bounds, and is the last bastion of the intolerant.
MC - you STILL da man!
anji
"
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Author: Jack Swickard
Date: 2001-05-02 23:25
As long as Mark believes in Clarinets he is good with me. The rest I am unable to say. Keep up the good work Mark.
Best of luck,
Jack
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Author: The Mary
Date: 2001-05-02 23:51
I don't want any "christian" email either.
I don't care if Mark wants it or not.
You are a lunatic!!!!
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-05-03 00:49
It makes very little difference to me. I know people that are Lutheran, Jewish (orthodox and reform), Catholic, Protestant, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan and one Neo-Pagan (censor that!). And their religion has nothing to do with why they're my friends. It has nothing to do with the clarinet, it's personal and private.
"God is too big for one religion." And why do you conceal your identity?
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-05-03 04:19
I find this all to be a rather sad commentary. The Mr. Doe feels a need to seek validation of his religion from strangers (anyone reading this BBS) is evidence to me that his faith in himself is weak and his faith in his faith (sorry) is probably weaker. The notion that everyone needs to believe the same thing in order to be happy and well is an idea that most reasonable and intelligent and people abandon by the time they have completed puberty. Mr. Doe however, appears to be among those who continue to feel weak and powerless and so seek to have other beleive everything they do to validate those feelings and ideas of which they are unsure. He is probably also not very well educated. I feel very badly for him because his life probably includes many other torments and and difficulties and they are likely all self-generated. While I agree that this BB was not an appropriate place for his vile message of hate (Not exactly a "Christian" action, was it?) I think he needs assistance with his apparent weaknesses and failures more than he needs criticsm, though he would probably disagree. We can only hope that Mr. Doe is rendered incapable of commiting an act of procreation. I was taught as a child that validation must first come from yourself, not from making others feel inadequate or wrong and that seeking validation in such a way is something that the weak and stupid do to feel strong and superior. As I mentioned, it is all very sad to me. I am also embarrassed for everyone out there who really is a Christian (I am not) because Mr. Doe certainly is not. In his misguided, unenlightened and ignorant way though, I'm sure he thinks he is.
I must also ask, does he even play the clarinet?
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Author: Stefano
Date: 2001-05-03 12:09
Dear Ryan,
I believe that everybody here on the list will forgive you for your email against Mark, if you decide to show up and give an explanation why you sent such an impulsive message.
At this point a lot of people may be allowed to think that being a christian (like I am) means a number of bad things (including the obligation of spreading around hasty emails, instead than forgiving ones).
If you really want to serve well your religion, you should now personally take the blame for the message you sent, rather than marking these appasionate clarinetters (including me) as evils.
I would be proud of you if you can make it now....
Stefano
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-05-03 17:48
Who gives a big furry rat's.........
What does this have to do with clarinets?
JonDoe? Is this anonymity? With an email address?
Hey, Mark. Delete this page.
~ jerry
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-05-03 18:58
As a Born Again C. The only problem with being a C. is some of the people who are C. one of the first teaching is "do not judge least you be judged." No two teaching is "he who has not sinned cast the first stone."
Come on John get a life.
#2. Get off this board.
God Bless
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-05-03 23:37
Well, Jon Doe, you sure convinced me! If being Christian means being such a busybody then excuse me while I go worship some lizards. I mean really, who you think you are to carry on like that, blabbing someone's private conversation on a public bulletin board? My seven year old started using a computer this year and he already knows better than that! I hope you grow up and learn something from all this about how *not* to get converts.
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-04 00:17
you know....I'm not going to comment on any of the religious aspects or what I know to be true since it is so completely different from what people are used to. But what I will comment on is what everybody else's reaction has been.
After reading through these things, it occurred to me that probably the only reason he posted that message was to provoke reactions, to see what he could get out of people. And if that was his goal, apparantly he was quite successful.
Anyway, God bless you all.
Julia
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Author: Laurie H.
Date: 2001-05-04 02:34
I feel sorry for you, Mr. He-Who-Has-No-Name. So many people have been persecuted, enslaved and killed in the name of religion. You can call it a Crusade, a Holocaust or Jihad but it's all the same. You feel you're chosen, you're right and everyone who doesn't think like you do is damned and worthless. It's a short trip from there. Just when I think the world has learned from it's mistakes, someone like you comes along and I get a little nervous. I was glad to see from the rest of the posts that not everyone agrees with you. By the way, my true answer to your post is, "So what?"
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Author: Steve
Date: 2001-05-04 03:21
Many good points in this thread about "so what?" and "what does it have to do with clarinets?"
HOWEVER.... as far as I can actually read in his message (without reading INTO his message), it was just to pass on some information. Misguided, perhaps. Yes, a public post of a private conversation. But what you all chose to do with it was your own decision. There have been many posts here about violins, flutes, etc. that have no more to do with clarinets than JonDoe's post.
Go ahead, check.... I'll wait.......
But where was such venom directed at the poster? As far as you know, his real name could really be Jonathan Doe. Equal shame on you all for your responses which were WAY OVERBOARD (all of them weren't).
Perhaps it is true that the only intolerance is that which is directed at Christians?? (ooohh, I can hear the responses to THAT one...)
Mark ya probably outta cut this one. We'll take up all your computer space on this one...
By the way, Jesus would probably prefer Klezmer (sic)
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Author: Stefano
Date: 2001-05-04 07:52
The name is not Brian. But he can tell everybody who he is (even after ALL THAT being said), and then regain self respect and the respect of all others (at least mine).
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2001-05-04 13:43
Julia:
I thought Brian's question was very humorous.
Thank you, Brian. We all need some irreverence in our lives. I actually think he would probably be a Buffet person. Smooth and elegent.
Matt
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-05-04 20:06
Stefano...I was not commenting on the original message, but on Brians
Matt...ok---but I don't see how that changes the fact that it was inappropriate, and No..we don't
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Author: Karel Vahala
Date: 2001-05-05 04:01
Steve, writing about violins on this BB, and divulging people's religious or political beliefs with MALICIOUS INTENT is not comparable. At least I hope you do not think it is. Karel
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Author: IceMan
Date: 2001-05-22 02:25
Karel-- how is simply stating someones belief malicious?
I dont think JonDoe was threatened mark in any way, he was not putting down mark, christianity, satanism, anyone else's beliefs, or anything else.
He was simply stating beliefs. From what the message says, mark didnt ask that the e-mails be kept private
I think all of you who sent negaitve responses to jon doe Can stick your mom's dildo up your butt and sit on it!
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Author: anon
Date: 2002-08-04 02:24
This is priceless stuff in the archives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The Clarinet Pages
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I may not agree with his views but I then again, I probably wouldn't agree with him on other things as well. (Hummmmm Mark, do you like broccoli?)