 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2015-06-27 21:22
I have a high school student who was just accepted into a very good youth orchestra -- told that he will be playing E-flat clarinet on Shostakovich 5th next season. Kid doesn't presently own an e-flat and the price of a new -say- R13 is prohibitive. Currently has two instruments out on approval:
Perhaps 50-year-old Buffet R13, owned by a local doubler. Very well maintained.
Brand new Buffet E11 (can you say Schreiber?).
Both are roughly the same price, about 1/3 the cost of a new R13.
I played both at his lesson this morning. My observations: R13 has a warmer sound, but has intonation problems - particularly high C that strobe can't decide between C and C#. E11 feels "tighter" but has better scale; high C is also sharp, but not as egregious as the R13. Previous owner of the R13 has already lined appropriate tone holes with tape to try to tame the high C. Will the sound of the E11 open up once it is broken in?
I know that there is prejudice here on the BBoard about so-called student horns, but I know of at least one major US orchestra guy who played E11 e-flat.
I assume that if they decide to sell the horn after a few years, the R13 will probably bring about what they paid for it (assuming good condition) -- E11 will probably depreciate a bit, might be harder to resell.
I will share the wisdom of BBoard cognoscenti with my student.
Kind thanks for your advice,
Larry
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-06-27 22:46
Congratulations to you and your student for getting into a quality youth orchestra. I think a lot depends on the student as to which of the two instruments. For me, the older R-13 would be the best buy, assuming the student is capable of making the intonation adjustments. Lots can be done with altered fingerings, but there is a learning curve there he would have to overcome. Considering it was played by a person who doubled, it is probably a pretty decent, but not perfect. clarinet and like you say would possibly have a better resale value.
But, if you are not sure your student can overcome the intonation/fingering issues, then the E11 would be perfectly fine. A better mouthpiece can go a long way to improving an Eb's sound, too. Will it start to sound better once broken in? My guess is "not much", but someone else here might have more experiences with that.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-06-27 23:47
Larry - congratulations on having a student excell!
I "do" a lot of E-flat. I love the Eeffer. Here's my advice - Sounds like the R13 has been around the block a few times, and has issues. Tone holes taped up for intonation, and still a little whacky. I would go for the E11. Here's the gig - The E11 is actually a wonderful wee horn. I play one as a professional. Here's what you need to do, tho - you'll need to get a Clark Fobes lower joint extension, that will even out the bottom of the horn. Then get his barrel - get the 42mm barrel in blackwood, that should solve your high C. Don't fear the German made E11, it is billed as a student horn but built as a pro horn. It is made as a R13 would have been made 20 years ago. (And yes, I use a Fobes mouthpiece on the Eeffer too!)
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
Post Edited (2015-06-27 23:52)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-06-28 04:45
Would it be possible to try the instruments with some different barrels? Clark makes a really nice Eb barrel. Maybe get a few different lengths and try them on both instruments to see if it tames tone and pitch a little?
The R13 would certainly have a better resale, but it is pointless if it is impossible to play it in tune.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-06-28 09:29
I agree that it may be better to avoid the intonation problems of the R13. That said, I have a 40/50 year old R13 that plays very well- several tones holes have been adjusted. This was initially done using blue tack (so it could be easily removed if the adjustments proved "un-ideal" after a week of playing), which was later replaced with a putty. The "thumb C" was indeed very high- this note (and the B below it) have been lowered by closing the tone hole covered by the 2nd finger, rather than the hole under the pad between 1st and 2nd fingers.... That hole has been almost half filled in, which does a good job of lowering high C/B without flattening low f/e too much. It does, however, render the 1/1 fingering for high B flat seriously flat. Several other toneholes have "lesser" adjustments.
We had NZSO auditions last week, and a number of colleagues got together to "Jam" on the E flat excerpts. Other players (trying my clarinet) commented that the intonation was excellent (with the adjustments I'd made- without them they certainly wouldn't have thought that).
I tried this clarinet with 42mm Fobes barrel, it sounded and responded very nicely and I was impressed, however the change to the intonation on MY horn was only slight.
I don't know anyone who playes an E11 E flat, but I do know a fine professional player who has played in several top line orchestra with an E11 A clarinet that had been "souped up" (tuned) by a former teacher. The "feel" on this instrument is indeed a little "pinched" or "tighter" but because it has such even intonation you find you quickly adjust your voicing and setup to compensate for this. This player has beaten me at 2 auditions, and no one has ever criticised her tone...
You'd probably lose less money on the R13, but I can't tell from here how bad the intonation is. If you want to mess with the tuning (I'm not sure from this post how knowledgable you are for this) I'd recommend getting the section from the Leon Russianoff book about this- I'm pretty sure there is a chapter where he outlines step by step a process of evaluation and adjusting the intonation. To be honest this chapter is just about ALL you need- it's really well thought out and a good process (the only thing is, use blue tack as your temporary "testing it out" fix, rather than filling in the holes with cork grease)
Note- if chalumeau D is sharp and high A is flat, avoid like the plague, that's a problem best avoided, not easy to adjust or to find a useful compromise.
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-06-28 21:51
If you have the time to investigate, I would suggest another option: the Yamaha YCL-681. I've played a few E-flat clarinets in my time and currently own a Buffet Tosca. I can also tell you with absolute certainty that, short of the Tosca (which quite literally broke the bank), the best E-flat clarinet I've ever played was a YCL-681. The intonation was superb (better than my own instrument, in fact). Many, many professional clarinetists I know have chosen these instruments for their superb scale and affordable price, typically significantly less than an R-13. When I was looking to buy an E-flat about two years ago, prices were around $3500 for a new R-13 and $2500 for a new YCL-681. Unfortunately, taking a quick look today, I only turned up quotes for about twice that price... perhaps prices have gone up significantly in the last two years, but I imagine you could find a deal somewhere.
Eric
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2015-06-28 22:31
I've got an E11 eefer tricked out like Ken Jarcyk - Fobes extension, a Scott barrel and a Dan Johnston m/p I scored from Ben Redwine. Great playing setup, but I just don't get enough eefer calls these days.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2015-06-29 05:31
Thanks for sharing your intelligence, guys! Passed info along to student. Even I'm not too old to learn something new!
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2015-06-30 12:52
I would pass by both instruments.
The intonation issues with the R13 seem too large to overcome.
When buying new it is a good idea to try multiple E11s and pick out the best one. But don't expect an E11 to play as open as an R13 or RC.
I would sit and wait for other chances to come.
They will be more used R13s available by time.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-06-30 22:52
What about the Ridenour e flat? I personally have zero experience with it, but people on this forum seem to love his clarinets.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-07-01 00:04
Ridenour doesn't make an Eb. If you want people to take your posts seriously, you should refrain from recommending equipment you know nothing about.
Post Edited (2015-07-01 00:11)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2015-07-01 19:51
When I played Eb in Nashville, I got in the habit of just not using the register key for many of the upper clarion notes. From about A above the staff through D, I just didn't use it. Of course it takes a lot of practice, but it becomes second nature. This brought the pitch way down and made those notes tune beautifully.
Another trick for the high B and C is to just put the first 3 fingers of the right hand down.
Given a new E11 or an older R13, I'd be more inclined to choose the R13 even with the tuning challenges. Get another barrel, pull the mouthpiece out, lower the key heights---especially the register key, tape in the tone holes... whatever.
Also, have a look at the Yamaha Ebs. They are really, really good and are priced lower than the Buffets and have much better tuning. Patricolas are also very nice.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-07-03 03:16
FYI...I chatted very briefly with Ted Ridenour this afternoon. Tom Ridenour is not currently making an Effer and probably has no intention in the future. I got the feeling from Ted it wasn't that Ridenour couldn't make the instrument, though the acoustics are challenging, but there's not enough buying demand for production. (As brilliant as his products are, I'd scoop one up immediately.) The horn presented on Brook Mays website is stamped with Ridenour on the product, but has no affiliation with Tom's current product line. Ted seemed baffled by the effer online as much as I was.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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