 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-06-20 17:11
I use the traditional method of installing pads with clear stick shellac. I recently spoke with a world class woodwind tech who tells me that hot glue is superior to shellac in every way. he states that Buffet uses hot glue and they are experts due to their researching every aspect of clarinet manufacturing. I would appreciate any input. Thanks.
Post Edited (2015-06-20 17:13)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-20 17:29
Superior in every way when you are installing pads because it is quicker (cheaper) and for the most part easier to use (when you get practiced at it). Those who use hot glue, seat pads with hair dryer.
But if you are exposing clarinets to direct sunlight outside on significantly hot days I am pretty sure the hot glue will free up and allow movement of the pad in the seat.
Personally I'd avoid those shops.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-20 17:52
Paul Aviles wrote:
> But if you are exposing clarinets to direct sunlight outside on
> significantly hot days I am pretty sure the hot glue will free
> up and allow movement of the pad in the seat.
>
>
> Personally I'd avoid those shops.
>
Or avoid playing outside in direct sunlight on significantly hot days.
I guess it matters what kind of playing you do.
Karl
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2015-06-20 18:27
I worked on a barge which had temperatures on the deck around 120, with the sun beating down on our *black* instruments. The temp off deck was about 103. My pads are held in with hot glue and they never unseated themselves. That new clarinet smell did come back though...
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-06-20 19:55
Shellac is brittle. With the expansion and contraction of the metal keys it can loose its grip. This can take some years to happen. Very few professional repair technicians in the USA use shellac for clarinet pad installation but it certainly works. It is still used by French oboe manufacturers, but they have a very different way of installing pads.
There are many different hot melt glue formulations. Some of them might get too soft in a hot car trunk, but I can't think of a repair issue that I can attribute to this.
Steve Ocone
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-06-20 20:01
To my thinking, wouldn't having hot-glue under the key cups cause a difference in how the clarinet itself vibrates, as opposed to the shellac, which probably has no dampening properties?
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-20 22:36
Interesting premise about the sound. No, I think that has more to do with the shape and material of the surface that is being struck by the column of air. I hear much bigger differences in sound with "buttons" (as in the Lucien Deluxe pads) or resonators, then next in order of precedence would come the different pad wrappings (leather, fish-skin, Gortex).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-20 22:52
Several years ago, I played at the Air Force Memorial in Washington, D.C. (no shade available there) using a clarinet on which I had used hot glue. The temperature was significantly in excess of 100 degrees F. We did lose a musician to the heat, but I had no problem with any of the pads. In those cases, I try to keep my instrument in my own shadow when I am not actually playing it.
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Author: kthln.hnsn
Date: 2015-06-20 22:56
I use the adhesive pellets from musicmedic for repadding. Never had a problem with them. Not sure what they're made of though.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-06-21 01:41
I prefer shellac for its lovely old- fashioned smell and, more practically, its brittleness: when cooled you can easily remove an excess from the rim of pad cups.
Hot melt glue is offered with different melting temperatures so you shouldn't get in trouble by higher external temperatures. As far as I know these pellets are also sort of hot melt glue, and you can chop little slices from a hot melt stick as well.
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Author: 4accord
Date: 2015-06-21 05:51
I (an amateur) use shellac for saxophone pads. Have heard that the firmness is better for these much-larger-than-clarinet pads. My 30-years experienced professional repair tech, however, is very happy to use hot melt even on saxes. But I use hot melt beads from Instrument Clinic on clarinets and wood flutes and have no problems. But I would emphasize that both shellac and hot melt can be cooked hot enough to fry and stick, so be careful - it can make for a nasty clean-up job requiring a lot of elbow grease and buffing compound. What gets me is those little wisps of shellac that can easily stick to the outside of the key cups (and get fried before you notice them).
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2015-06-21 11:54
http://www.glueguru.com/Hot%20Melts.htm suggests the softening point of Loctite melt rule to be in the region of 180+ F.
Less than 10 secs research turns this up. I think it devalues this board to speculate as above when it's so easy to get informed.
Sorry to be so grumpy - maybe I should have gone with the option of a lie-in.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-21 13:54
>> Those who use hot glue, seat pads with hair dryer <<
That's not true. A hair dryer wouldn't work with any of the hot glues or shellacs I use. By the way, almost no shellac sold now is pure shellac and some is completely synthetic (but sometimes called shellac).
I have at least four or five types of shellac that are different and at least as many hot glues that also are different.
Re the glue moving or melting from heat (the sun, etc.), it really depends. I have some shellac that will move from lower heat than some hot glue. Actually there is only one type of glue I have, in sticks, that bends in the summer in its glass. That's why I stopped using it. It is sold as shellac and it's a type of synthetic shellac.
How rigid, brittle, etc. also varies a lot. Some shellac is hard and brittle, but I've never had a pad fall out even after many years. I've seen pads fall and most of the time the glue was something like shellac - hard and brittle - but who knows what it was. I proved to myself there is no issue of pads falling with any of the good shellacs I've tried.
Some hot glues are softer, but they don't move when closing the pads. It can be more springy, so it doesn't change shape at all and it's rigid enough to not have any compromise in reliability.
The synthetic shellac I mentioned, when dry, feels harder than almost any hot glue when dry, but the fact is it is affected by low heat and is less reliable.
As far as the glue affecting the sound, anyone can believe what they prefer or claim they can hear or feel the difference (they might be sure they do actually feel/hear it). However, it was already shown by reliable tests, where this was isolated, that it doesn't make a difference.
So IMO choose a glue that is good and reliable, as opposed to choosing based on many myths...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-21 14:50
Perhaps some of you use a superior "hot glue." To you I apologize, but I have seen a technician actually use the "hair dryer" seat method. And how many others out there do this for student instruments or any other instruments they feel they can get away with this?
And by the way, that glue is clear looking, not the "waxier" looking substances that are in the link provided by "Fishamble."
I just skip the part were I bother to find out how good the "hot glue" is that is being used on my clarinet.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-06-21 19:20
Ken J.,
Please don't "go there." :-)
That would mean yet another subject with endless posts and contentious debates about something that likely is inconsequential to begin with, but that nobody will test scientifically anyway. Then soon we'll be having debates such as which hot glues and which shellacs enhance or muffle the overtones and which overtones, and how much, and how much to use (so people will have to go out an buy ultra-sensitive analytical balances to "do it right").
Please! Noooooooo! :-)
B.
Post Edited (2015-06-21 19:22)
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-06-21 19:40
You can use a hairdryer to seat pads, but not to level pads. It does not get hot enough to melt glue. A hot air gun/torch will get hot enough to melt glue and shellac.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-22 08:50
>> Perhaps some of you use a superior "hot glue." To you I apologize, but I have seen a technician actually use the "hair dryer" seat method. And how many others out there do this for student instruments or any other instruments they feel they can get away with this? <<
I don't know. I've seen both hot glues and shellacs that are not good. If your repairer says he uses shellac it's really not a sign of anything. The most unreliable glue I've seen is a synthetic shellac, which dries to be harder and more brittle just like shellac (as opposed to some hot glues).
Here is a photo of what used to be a straight shellac stick, simply standing in that glass in a room that never gets extremely hot. It is the only hot glue I've ever had this happen to. Other shellac and hot glue sticks simply remain straight no matter how long they are there.
I think using a glue that melts from a hair dryer is pretty rare for repairers (I don't know any) and would be the expection, if there's really a glue that would melt from that. So unless you have real evidence to the opposite, it's likely you are generalizing based on a tiny minority. Is it really what it sounded like, that you generalized based on seeing it done by one person...?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-22 12:26
What I DO is have a small job done by a repair shop and see what that looks like before I have them do a full re-pad or similarly important project. There are other criteria as well such as the flexibility to use components and methods upon request.
I have been "stuck" using less then adequate repair shops (and there are a vast number of those - your average, corner music store) and have observed things that make chills run up and down my spine. And I don't know if you can extrapolate anything from this, but the two worst examples I've seen where reputable brass repair places that "branched out" into woodwinds. They should've stuck to their strengths.
Having said that I do my own spring tension adjustment, key oiling, emergency repair, pad replacement (one or two at a time).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-22 12:50
Just because Buffet use hot glue doesn't mean it's the best as they're not the best maker by a long shot as there are a lot of shortcomings in the finishing of their clarinets, so don't hail them as the be all and end all where every aspect of clarinet making goes.
As a high volume maker, they're only using hot glue for economy and convenience as any idiot can stick a pad in with it - whether or not they seat it properly is another matter and the amount of leaky Buffets shows they don't.
I've also had many Buffet pads drop clean out from the pad cups leaving no trace of hot glue in there as well as pads dropping out and leaving the glue behind, so hot glue isn't any better in its adhesive qualities to metal or the backs of pads than shellac is.
I personally can't stand hot glue as it is a bugger to clean out from pad cups and in its molten state is very dangerous if it makes contact with skin as it sticks and burns, removing the skin with it. Shellac will also burn the skin if it gets into contact with it, but it will solidify and can be removed easily without removing the skin.
I've only had four instances of shellac not adhering to the pad cup using MusicMedic's clear shellac so the pad came clean out from the pad cup, but to get around that I melt some shellac in the pad cup to prime it, then fit the pads in my usual manner. I prefer shellac due to its hardness as hot glue has some sense of give in it which I don't like when using cork pads.
I have used hot glue in the past, but that was over 20 years ago. I sometimes use it when installing synthetic pads which are far more sensitive to temperature than cork, leather or skin pads, but on the whole I generally use shellac to fit pads in as standard. Even on Buffets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-06-22 14:22
Thanks Chris. A very talented repair tech also said that along with hot glue being the best using Buffet as an example you do not have to clean the pad cups at all if hot glue was used which I also disagree with because when i did my apprenticeship I was taught to always clean the pad cups thoroughly before installing fresh pads.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-22 17:16
He can't be all that talented if he's cutting corners!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-06-22 18:15
Bruce M -
Sorry to scare you with my question!
In "real-life" I've faced a pad replacement or two in emergency situations, but I've always been fortunate to have found folk who gave me the choice, and I always chose shellac.
When I've had my horns professionally serviced, such as at Brannen's Woodwinds of Evanston, shellac is the only method.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-06-22 22:06
Ken J.,
My response had nothing to do with the adhesive qualities of shellac or hot glue in padding or replacing pads.
What "scared" me was the possibility of yet another interminable debate about something that likely is of no significance: about how the type of adhesive would affect the sound of the instrument.
Cheers.
B.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-23 09:13
>> ...but the two worst examples I've seen... <<
To be clear, my question is specifically how many repairers have you actually seen using this method, that you generalized about all repairers who use hot glue?
>> I've only had four instances of shellac not adhering to the pad cup using MusicMedic's clear shellac <<
Music Medic's clear shellac is not shellac but a completely synthetic hot glue, without any shellac, that dries to be harder and more brittle, similar to shellac.
>> I have used the hot glue pellets also, mostly on flute pads. I don't think there is anything inferior about those or other hot glue in practice except they do not allow as easy a clean-up procedure and who knows what toxic junk they are made from. <<
Someone can correct me, but AFAIK none of the shellac sticks sold by instrument repair suppliers are pure shellac (at least according to repair suppliers I have asked), so who knows what toxic junk they are made of, other than shellac. I couldn't find pure shellac but maybe you know of a source? Not that it would necessarily be good, since some non-pure shellac I've tried was terrible too.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-06-23 09:23
I buy pure flaked shellac from an art supplies shop. They sell it unbleached (a dark honey colour) or bleached (almost clear). There seems to be no difference in the adhesive qualities, but the clear product does a neater job.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-23 10:42
The synthetic shellac I like to get from MusiMedic is completely transparent like glass, so it can be used on all types of pads without having to worry about colour matching if you're particular about that. I do also use white with white leather pads (and skin pads should I happen to install them) and black with kangaroo leather pads on saxes, but I could easily use the transparent on any. Although it is synthetic, it too can be dissolved in alcohol just like natural shellac.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-06-23 12:23
whatever type of pad glue/cement you use - but I think we can dismiss the myth that the hot glue used in instrument repairs would get liquid and the pads fall out if you leave your instrument in a hot car. (Of course, the pads have to be glued in correctly, just squirting a blob of hot glue into a cold pad cup won't do.)
From the discussion above - I gather no one uses the "window-putty" substance often used in old German clarinets? (I'm not a huge fan of that stuff)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2015-06-24 12:51)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-23 23:47
>> Who said it was not shellac? I mean besides Claribass? <<
In this thread, Chris P. Outside this thread, Music Medic themselves. Unless they changed it to actual shellac, though their website always said shellac (i.e. when it was definitely synthetic, so I see nothing that suggests it was changed).
>> It seems by the description the shellac from music medic is either clear bleached or amber shellac. I don't know. <<
You can try to guess but I have both the amber and the clear shellac from Music Medic and I asked them what it was. You can ask them yourself if you want.
Post Edited (2015-06-24 00:03)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-23 23:57
>> I think you should just keep using the synthetic hot glue, Claribass. Shellac is not for everyone, obviously. <<
What...? I have a few different types of shellacs and use them often. I don't think I said I prefer hot glue or recommended it over shellac. I just corrected the wrong info and generalizations about hot glue.
>> The synthetic shellac I like to get from MusiMedic is completely transparent like glass <<
I have some of it too. Like the synthetic shellac in the photo I posted above, it also moves with very slight force. Here is a stick that was in a glass similar to the stick in the previous photo. It's just the beginning of summer now (still not as hot as it gets) and as I mentioned, the room doesn't get extremely hot even on the hottest days.
The very little force of it leaning on the edge of the glass was enough to bend it after a while. This has never happened with any real shellac (some of which was terrible in other ways).
Post Edited (2015-06-24 00:12)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-24 00:35
This is why I like this synthetic shellac as it has a relatively low melting point compared to some natural shellac, but not as low melting as hot glue. Reason why I like that property is when using it on saxes with lacquered keywork where using too much heat can damage the lacquer. Not so much of a problem with plated or unplated keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-24 11:35
The Music Medic synthetic shellac is a hot glue... that dries similarly to shellac. Regardless of whether it disolves in alcohol... which it doesn't really, at least not like real shellac. You can clean it from pad cups with alcohol, but when I put shellac and the MM synthetic shellac in a cup of alcohol, the real shellac disappeared after a while and the synthetic shellac softened and seeems to disolve... but still had chunks long after the real shellac disappeared. Anyway, the way it is when dry is probably why they call it shellac. Too bad they don't mention that it's synthetic (unless I missed it).
>> This is why I like this synthetic shellac as it has a relatively low melting point compared to some natural shellac, but not as low melting as hot glue. <<
The fact that the sticks bend from extremely low force of leaning against the edge of a glass in a warm (not very hot) room, makes me not trust it in a pad cup where there is constant uneven force. It might not matter but I'm not sure I want to risk it.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-24 11:52
>> The soft shellac adhesive will naturally take the right shape just from the spring pressure. Standing open pads, I use a pony-tail elastic to hold them closed while the glue sets up. <<
Closed pads (and open pads when closing them) have uneven closing force. Because the hinge is on the side, there is more force closing the front of the key cup than the back (it can vary depending on where the hinge and key arms are). No keys have completely even force (e.g. if the pressure was coming from above) and only very few have close to that.
So if there is a layer of soft glue between the pad and the back of the pad cup (i.e. behind the pad... as opposed to "back" in the previous paragraph), then the force would apply more to the front of the pad, making it hit harder at the back (hinge side).
This can (and needs to be) compensated for.
You could find a shim to put between the pad and tone hole that would exactly compesnate for it, but different keys and pads would require different thicknesses in extremely small increments.
You could not rely on the spring and align the pad yourself.
You could align the key.
etc.
Sometimes it still works because of specific key, pad size in comparison with key (far more specific than the 0.5mm incs), how soft the glue is, etc. but these are not things that are possible to control 100%. So it can be more of a trial and error e.g. putting a shim, removing it at the right moment, using more or less force, etc.
It is not an issue when the pad isn't suported by the glue itself and its only purpose is to glue it. For example stepped pads that are supported by the key cup rim, or when the glue layer is thin enough to just fill any gaps to reliably glue the pad.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-06-24 12:55
Hmm, the force upon the glue "cushion" is negligible unless you really have a gorilla grip. I haven't seen hot melt glue that was so soft that it would budge under normal pad closing pressure. The felt in the pad is magnitudes softer than the glue.
--
Ben
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-06-24 23:37
Never realised how difficult putting pads in should be!
I've been maintaining my own instruments for 60 years and working as professional repairer for over 20 and have never come across the sort of problems noted in many posts above.
Originally I used shellac but most of past 20 years hot glue without problems with either.
Getting the pads correctly leveled from the first instance is more than 99% of the job and yes this varies a bit depending on the mechanical shapes/leverages of the linkages involved but practice and experience soon teaches you what is needed.
ps. haven't yet had a post proposing using animal glue for pads - guess only a matter of time!
Post Edited (2015-06-24 23:45)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-25 10:33
>> Hmm, the force upon the glue "cushion" is negligible unless you really have a gorilla grip. I haven't seen hot melt glue that was so soft that it would budge under normal pad closing pressure. The felt in the pad is magnitudes softer than the glue. <<
I consider the force applied by the stick standing in a glass to also be negligible. No hot glue or real shellac stick I have has ever bent from this force, with the exception of the synthetic shellac shown in the photos.
It seems like the glue might move from the spring or finger force just the same. The felt is almost at a certain limit (eventhough it can gradually press more over time). It's just the same as when the glue is completely soft. Put a pad with liquid glue behind it and let it close... it would move. It's the same just much slower. It might be too slow to matter... but I'm not sure I want to risk it. I just don't find feel I can trust it. Again, I had absolutely no issue with any other hot glue or shellac I have tried.
>> I can almost follow Claribass's last post, but the calculus is excessive. <<
You can call it that. I call it analyziung what is actually hapenningas much as possible. I prefer to do that and al though it won't necessarily lead to better results, sometimes it does and it never leads to worse results.
>> I think the uneven forces tend to balance themselves <<
Sometimes they do. Often they don't. It also depends on what precision you are aiming for. That's why I checked and tested what happens with those forces applied, etc. and unfortunately I found it doesn't this way, since if it would I would save a lot of time replacing pads...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-26 09:46
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment <<
OK, all the shellac and hot glue sticks I have probably move from some force in room temperature, but...
The transparent stick in the second photo looked straight to me just a few weeks before that photo. The amber stick in the first photo looked straight a few months before it looked drastically bent and a just a couple of weeks more to get completley bent like this.
I have some hot glue and shellac sticks that were standing in the glass for over a year and they always looked the same as the day I put them there.
The difference in resistance to this very small force is why I don't want to trust it. The difference in force on the front and back of a pad is probably smaller than the force on the top of the stick leaning against the glass, but in the case of a pad it only needs to move very little to compromise adjustment.
The fact that it is happening in a warm (but not very hot) room, definiltey not as warm as many areas where people play in, suggest it is very significantly affected by this.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-26 19:54
I've used MusicMedic shellac for well over five years now and haven't encountered any pads (both cork and leather) shifting or losing their seating in all that time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-27 00:26
If you're just here to take the piss, then jog on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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