 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-29 19:33
I too would like to hear more, although there is some stuff in the bboard's recent archives on this mouthpiece.
Two additional questions come to mind. The first is why Vandoren points out that the mouthpiece is made of ebonite. Is it because this is different from the, say, series 13 Vandoren mouthpieces because it is made of "hard" rubber (ebonite), as opposed to "rod" rubber???
Second, although of course we need to try this mouthpiece ourselves if interested, as opinions vary, has anyone tried this mouthpiece and felt it like one or more other Vandoren mouthpieces, or a combination of them?
It appears to be a relatively open tip (1.13mm)--(although many attributes contribute to how a mouthpiece feels). I've often associated easier articulation with smaller tips openings (others may disagree, or at least not embrace this correlation), and yet a fellow gig player yesterday that was playing this mouthpiece, who had similar general thoughts on articulation and facing size, reported it articulates very well compared to the M13/15.
http://www.vandoren-en.com/file/165970/
(Of course players articulate, not mouthpieces. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) )
Post Edited (2015-05-29 19:35)
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Author: clarinetkid23
Date: 2015-05-29 20:25
I recently tried two of these mouthpieces. For a bit of background, I was coming from a Vandoren M15 using V21 size 3.5 reeds.
Both of the Black Diamonds I tried sounded very similar to each other. Coming from the closer tip opening of the M15, I was expecting the black diamonds to be more resistant, but I found them to be almost as free-blowing as my M15. I found the articulation to be similar to my M15 as well.
As I mentioned earlier, the black diamonds sounded similar, however they did not feel as similar as they sounded. The one I ultimately decided to keep felt more flexible to me. Despite this feeling of flexibility though, the friends I had listening to me could not pick up a discernible difference between the two black diamonds.
Overall, I am keeping the Vandoren black diamond mouthpiece because the feel is similar to my previous M15, which I liked, but the sound I can get from it has more body than the M15 with the reeds I use. YMMV
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Author: RAL
Date: 2015-05-30 00:55
Ebonite is a brand name for hard rubber. Rod is the format/presentation of the hard rubber. So I am pretty sure there is no difference other than the wording.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-06-03 21:03
I've played on a Vandoren Black Diamond BD5 (regular, not series 13) for the last few weeks. Mine tunes a little sharp by American standards to about A = 441.
The Black Diamond has wider side rails and a much wider tip rail than the M13 or the CL Masters Series pieces. The tone chamber is larger than the chamber in the Masters Series but not larger than the chamber in the M13 and M13 lyre.
In tone quality, the sound of the Black Diamond is closer to the soundof the M30D and the M40D than to the M13 or the Masters Series. It does not have the "ring tone" French/American resonance of the M13. The tone is covered and rather subdued, rather like the traditional Viennese sound, and this quality is preserved all the way to the top of the altissimo. The M30D, in my experience has good cover up to the middle clarion and then gets a little buzzier or less covered. Players trying to make their upper register playing less shrill might consider the Black Diamond, with its rounded, less penetrating sound. A round, non-percussive sound is easily preserved in rapid articulation on the Black Diamond.
The facing on the Black Diamond, however, feels open, and very fatiguing to play on for me. I'm going to have it refaced with something like an M13 tip opening and resistance curve to see if that is easier for me to play. My favorite facings are usually medium length and tip between 0.96 mm and 1.01 mm (for example, in the Behn Artist model 0.98 mm, the Fobes CWF personal model, the MoBa C, the Vandoren M13, and the Grabner G11). I'll write another review of the Black Diamond after the facing has been closed up. I tested the BlackDiamond on a Vandoren 21 #3 reed and a traditional #3 Vandoren. For me, the sound is a little less murky and more focused with the traditional model reed.
Players who like the resonant "ping" of the Vandoren M13 and M13 lyre, will probably not be attracted to the Black Diamond, unless they want to reduce the ping when performing a certain piece. Those that like the Vandoren M30D but find the tone shift from the mellowness of the lower registers to the more piercing upper register might also like the greater consistency in voicing and tone quality in the Black Diamond BD5.
Players who like the very dark covered sounds of the Kuckmeier B2 and the Clark Fobes Europa models might also be attracted to the Black Diamond BD5, especially for its relatively more affordable price.
Post Edited (2017-06-15 08:25)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-06-03 22:46
Every mouthpiece that I've ever tried with wider side rails and a thicker tip has felt much too sluggish to tongue rapidly. The sound has also been covered with not enough projection. Definitely something which would not work in orchestra.
Once again, I fail to understand the current trade-off of balky tonguing for a covered, closed sound on a Bb mouthpiece.
...GBK (who plays a 'thin rail' Borbeck, Kaspar, or Vandoren crystal)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-06-04 06:21
They love to put this rails on so many of those mouthpieces. . The law of diminishing returns is at work.
Post Edited (2016-03-14 05:20)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-06-04 06:36
A lot of orchestral players use more covered setups, so it must work ok for orchestra playing...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-04 15:00
Well I for one find that it does not HELP to create the more "pingy" sound that I want, not that you can't. There is (or was) a "Vandoren TV" video of some top French player trying out a Vandoren M30 and he sounded quite lovely on it.
I recently had a student switch to an M30 (without mentioning it to me.....I guess I should have noticed). From that time, the student sounded stuffy and seemed to struggle to get more center from the sound. I have tried to point that out but the "newness" of it is captivating. I don't know what else to do........so I am currently frustrated with them (as you can understand).
That all said, the M30s are the ONLY Vandorens (and the D version of course) I can think of (and besides the Black Diamond I have not seen yet) that feature the particularly thick rails.
I would also hasten to add the Masters CL4 to the list of exceptional Vandorens (with the traditionally more closed classical facings).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-04 15:08
>> Mine tunes a little sharp by American standards to about A = 441. <<
What does that mean...?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-06-04 18:29
Claribass,
Some players consider A = 440 to be the American standard for tuning versus the A = 442 pitch that many European orchestras prefer. IF you accept A = 440 as the American standard then a mouthpiece playing at A = 441 would be "a little sharp by American standards." The Vandoren series 13 mouthpieces have slightly deeper baffles and other adjustments that make them play around A=440. In the Reserve line of mouthpieces, the ones marked "E" (for European) tend to play at about A = 442 and the regular ones tune a bit lower, around A = 440. I have not tried the Vandoren BD5 in the series 13 model but I assume that it plays at a slightly lower pitch than the BD5 regular model I have. When Vandoren first issued the series 13 models of many of their mouthpieces, they announced that these models would accomodate what they perceived as the American preference for the lower tuning standard of A = 440. The regular BD5 I have does not play as high as I expected (I expected it to play at A = 442), but it does play higher than the American standard of A = 440. Perhaps that is an intentional compromise or it may also be a random variation of mass production.
Post Edited (2015-06-04 19:33)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-03-15 04:24
Paul, I wouldn't blame lack of center or stuffiness on the mouthpiece. I and others have played the M30 and I don't remember either being a problem. Like any other mouthpiece, the M30 needs compatible reeds to work well. I would see how the reed relationship is.
Post Edited (2016-03-16 21:31)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-15 04:41
I've tried it and wasn't too impressed by it. I still think the new D'Addario Reserve X0 is MUCh better. The sound of the BD5 wasn't very brilliant nor projecting.
Post Edited (2016-03-17 08:00)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-15 05:18
For my taste also, the new D'Addario Reserve X0 is much more focused and resonant, with a bigger dynamic range, and more of what I usually look for in a mouthpiece. But for players looking for something more like a less expensive alternative to a Kuckmeier or a Fobes Europa, the BD5 may fill the bill.
Post Edited (2016-03-15 07:21)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-03-22 03:02
I received the BD5 13 today and found that it has a very warm, yet vibrant sound. Tuning is not compromised whatsoever and has a very even scale from bottom E to the top of the range. Also, higher notes have just as warm of a sound as the clarion register and the lower register. It's a very good mouthpiece and a interesting offering for those who like the sound of the B40-type mouthpieces but don't want to play a opening quite that large.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-03-22 20:44
The Bd 5 Vandoren is a fine mouthpiece. It works well in all settings and tunes superbly.
David Dow
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-03-22 21:49
Years ago, the Woodwind Company used to advertise their MP material as "Steel Ebonite" ... which implied that is was stronger/harder than regular ebonite ...
BTW, my M30-lyre has cleaner and more uniform articulation than my M13s and 5RV-lyres, both which have a closer facing and narrower tip rails.
I even narrowed the tip rail on one of my M13s, in hope of making it a bit brighter and improvising the articulation. The "improvement" only yielded a thinner quality and left articulation mostly untouched.
So, more to this than just side/tip rail width, it seems. Tricky art and science, left only to the trained and practiced. If you expect to tweak your MPs yourself, expect to screw up a few (dozen) first.
I had correspondence with Mike Lomax and he stated that even while knowing what he was doing, it took him a long time and a lot of practice and mistakes to make what he considered a really,really good MP. We have a retired gentleman in one of the community band in our area (a former full-time pro and a Russianoff student) and he is using a Lomax E3 and sounds fantastic ...
Tom
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-03-23 04:27
I briefly tried a BD5 13 Series around a week ago. It was too open a facing for me, but it had a nice sound, if a little too covered for my taste. I was using reeds on the hard side for this mouthpiece; I think I would have liked it better with softer reeds, but I had none available.
My main complaint was that the pitch in the short tube notes was quite a bit flatter than with my Fobes mouthpiece. Not sure if all the BD5s are like that, or just the particular one I tried.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-03-23 17:09
maxopf wrote:
> My main complaint was that the pitch in the short tube notes
> was quite a bit flatter than with my Fobes mouthpiece. Not
> sure if all the BD5s are like that, or just the particular one
> I tried.
All Vandoren 13 series MPs have a larger bore than the Zinner blanks.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-03-23 19:26
Right, I should have specified that it was unusually flatter than my Fobes, even flatter than other Series 13 mouthpieces I've tried. I figured it would be just a little flatter.
It's worth noting that Clark Fobes orders his Zinner blanks with undersized bores and reams them to his own specs, so his mouthpieces don't have the original Zinner bores. They probably still have smaller bores in the end than Series 13 mouthpieces, though.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-03-24 00:45
maxopf,
When I check my measurements, the Cicero 13 has indeed a little wider bore than the Kanter and Grabner mouthpieces I own. It is very near the Vandoren M30 while the M30 13 is significantly wider. The difference 45 mm from the end between the M30 13 and the Kanter/Grabner mpcs is 0.5 mm. The M30 and the Cicero are half ways in between.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-03-26 05:38
To my knowledge the BD5 was not intended to be a wider bore, but the pitch for 13 series was just made by the mouthpiece being slightly longer. I haven't had any tuning issues thus far once I've been warmed up. It's definitely better to not put the instrument together cold and already be on the sharp side!
With that said, I am totally sold on the BD5 and don't have a single thing about it to single out as a deficiency. This design was something I have been looking for as a slightly less open answer to the B40 or M30.
If you would like to try one and can't get to a dealer or Vandoren studio that has some I would recommend Muncy Winds since their price is the lowest and they still offer trials.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2016-03-27 01:32
The 13 series VD mouthpieces are lower because the chamber is bored out slightly Tyler. They don't make longer VD mouthpieces.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-03-27 01:40
Peter,
According to Vandoren reps the BD5's bore is not altered to make it 13 series but the mouthpiece is made slightly longer. This could be incorrect but it was what I was told.
If anybody could get their hands on a BD5 regular and a BD5 13 to measure that would be great!
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-04-22 13:09
Coming from the M30 as my regular mouthpiece, I tested a BD5 and CL5 side by side.
The BD5 felt resistant in comparison to the M30 and CL5. I used the same reed for all.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-08-24 19:07
A question concerning the beak profile of the BD5. I have the BD5 (and like it very much), and have several other Vandoren mouthiece, all in "Profile 88". Ther is only on beak profile for the BD5. Comparing with my other mouthpieces a would say the BD5 has an exterior angle identical identical to the others. So can one say that the BD5 "has" Profile 88?
I am asking since I would like to try the B40 Lyre. Since I am very happy with the BD5, I would like to have the "same" beak profile.
Btw. Any comparison comments to BD5 vs. B40 Lyre?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2018-08-25 00:00
Gatto: Yes (at least when I did a quick comparison between a few Vandorens with regular beak and 88 beak).
Tyler is right above about the bore of the 13-series BD5. The bore size is the same which makes the 13-series equivalent to a regular BD5 with a 1.5 mm tuning ring or a longer barrel.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-08-28 08:56
I’ve recently abandoned the BD5. It’s simply too tiring to play. Especially as a double lip player. I think it has something to do with the deep baffle but I’m not knowledgeable enough to know for sure. I’m using an M30 again for now and am out looking for something else, once again.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-08-28 12:43
I commented on measurements of the BD lay in a previous thread. To summarise, it is quite close to a 5RV Lyre over most of the curve, but with changes at either end. The BD is shorter, with the opening of the curve going to zero more abruptly beyond 15mm from the tip, and it has a stronger curvature just 2-3mm from the tip with the curve flaring more open quite suddenly. Both these changes seem likely to make the thing harder work to play, leaving aside the issue of thicker rails. I found the BD very dull and lacking in resonance. I've noticed a couple of principals in major British orchestras using them recently, and I thought it had a negative impact on their sound.
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Author: Anonymoose
Date: 2018-08-28 18:51
The recent Martin Fröst videos has him playing the BD5. He doesn't sound dark or covered, though he sounds like himself on any equipment...
Maybe he's been using it since the time when he tried out the BD5 w/ V21 reeds. "They're blue!"
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2018-08-29 02:15
I agree with John Peacock. For me the BD5 sounds far too dark and mushy when I tried them on Bb and Bass. And it just doesn't project very far. Reed strength and cut may be a reason, but I was playing on what many others have been using: V12/V21 3.5s. However, I've heard a few players sounding great on them. To each of their own, I guess.
Josh
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-08-29 21:35
I am quite happy with my BD5, together with V21 #3.5.
After a long break I started again with my old B40 and B45dot. The B40 dark, the B45dot more brilliant. Used to play them with V.12 #2.5, I wanted a mouthpiece using with stronger reeds. For me, the tone of the BD5 is very similar to that of the B40. At the beginning I had frequently much reed noise, but getting used to the stronger reeds (and the mouthpiece) this now is okay.
On the other hand, sometimes I am missing a more brilliant sound, more overtones (like the B45dot). So now I've tried the B40 Lyre (also with V21 #3.5). After two short training sessions I cannot say for sure, of course, but my impression so far is:
1. Though I cannot say that the B40 Lyre is more resistant to blow, to me it *sounds* more resistant, and more "covered", less "direct".
2. The dynamic range of the B40L seems to be smaller than that of the BD5.
3. It seems to be easier to change the tone color of the B40L, in particular (together with the "resistance") to get more brilliance.
So in the moment it seems to make sense to me to give the B40L a longer chance. In any case I will keep my BD5 as my 1st mouthpiece, but if I will get used to the B40L on a comparable level, it would be nice to have two mouthpieces with different sound characteristic.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-08-29 23:17
I have to admit that the BD5 is now my primary mpc for a while. Before, I found it also too dark and too resistant. However, on a moment I put it on my clarinet and it played right the way it should.
On the moment I think it is one of the most successful mpcs of Vandoren to achieve a more dark sound. For me it outplays all M30 and B40 variants, including the D versions. It gives a full sound, also in the altissimo and that makes the sound more uniform across the entire range of the clarinet.
I use Vandoren V12 #3 or Gonzales #3.25 reeds. The V12 gives a very full sound but can sound a bit dull. The Gonzales is brighter.
BTW, I also like the BD5 for Eb clarinet.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-09-07 19:37
I know that this thread is not about the B40lyre. But since I started to try the B40lyre in order to compare it with the BD5, I would like to complement my initial experience.
I have used the B40lyre now maybe five or six times during exercising. First I tried it with the V21 #3.5, the same reed I use (and like) on my BD5. Then I tried it with a V.12 (!) #3.0 (!), and this seems to fit better to the B40lyre. Compared with the BD5, I find the sound of the B40lyre more colorful, and probably producing some more overtones. I am very happy with this in the moment. In the next time (at least) I will use both settings. Definitely, both are very good mouthpieces.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-09-07 22:46
Ive found better luck with the BD5 using a softer reed. Before I used a V12 3,5 now I like the V21 3 after some embouchure adjustment. The B40 lyre is also a very fine mouthpiece. It’s surprisingly easy to blow for something as open as it is. It’s interesting you find the sound colorful because I always thought it dull compared to the non lyre B40. And is why I stayed with the B40 13 for so long before switching to BD5.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-09-07 23:21
I guess the "correct" reed strength depends also on the (resistance of the) clarinet and barrel. In my case V21 #3.5 work fine on the BD5, clarinets are RC Prestige (Bb and A). I could imagine that, say, the R13 behaves different.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-09-07 23:47
Yes. I use a Ridenour clarinet and it is definetly more resistant than something by Buffet.
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Author: 82zman
Date: 2019-02-06 17:38
After seeing the advertising for the BD5 “The perfect balance between dark, rich, “ I was curious if this balance was possible. Maybe this was marketing hype. After trying it this description is spot on for my BD5 13 series MP. It is dark but yet has a very full round tone not achieved by any of the other Vandoren mouthpieces. If it has a down side I have to work a bit harder compared to my M13 Lyre. The facing curve is more taxing. It’s also a bit flatter than my M13 Lyre so it doesn’t work well with my Legere Signature reeds I use on occasion. Using a cane reed I have no intonation issues. I tried the non 13 series BD5 and the differences are more than tuning. I verified with Vandoren that the non 13 series BD5 has a chamber modification to alter the pitch. It’s not just shortened. I did not achieve the same round tone on the Non 13 series MP. It was less resistant but lacked the depth IMO.
82zman
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