 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-05-28 17:13
anyone has a suggestion/reference to good article on getting in tune 3rd mode? Fobes and Fox have some articles on clarinet acoustics, tuning, undercutting etc but they mostly talk about 1st and 2nd modes.
Have several horns which are mostly in tune until you get to altissimo F#, G, then it is not workable off by a country mile.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-28 22:31
Unusual to have several horns with the same problem. Are you sure it's not embouchure/voicing or mouthpiece problem.
F# is typically flat with 'normal' fingering but the long and overblown side Bb fingerings are usualy pretty good.
There are many fingerings for G are they all flat?
I find that the older Leblancs, LL etc are usually very good in altissimo whereas Buffets struggle more up there.
If 1st and 2nd registers are good then any changes you make are likely to degrade those.
Try alternate fingerings and different mouthpiece first.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-29 16:42
I didn't want to jump on this too soon, but I'm curious.
You want to make sure that the equipment all matches up well. For instance a mouthpiece designed for a French clarinet sitting atop a Buffet. Or a German mouthpiece (designed for an Oehler system) sitting on a Wurlitzer 100c.
Mismatching can cause unintentional tuning problems due to three major factors: Size of tone chamber (overall volume), Size and shape of bore (wave pattern generation issues; overall volume), Length (greatly affects pitch of altissimo).
As long as you're "matched up," the issue is most likely one of putting too much direct pressure on the reed and it is pushing the reed closed (biting). The best way to avoid that is to make sure you are engaging your cheek muscles and upper lip muscles in conjunction with the lower lip stuff (which we usually get right). If you think of the system more as firmness ALL AROUND the mouthpiece (more like a wrapped rubber band) you are more likely to prevent excessive pressure on the reed, keep the orifice open, and not push the pitch up.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-05-29 17:16
Altissimo F#6 with the standard fingering is flat on every instrument. Altissimo G6 with the left sliver key or the bottom trill key is very flat on every instrument.
For F#6, try the long fingering, adding the right little finger Eb/Ab key. If this is inconvenient, use the standard fingering and add the right little finger C#/G# key, or if this is sharp, add the right ring finger sliver key, being careful not to press the rings.
There are many fingerings for G6. Choose one (e.g., both index fingers and both ring fingers) and learn to use it. If you're coming from the clarion to G6, leave down the left index finger and open either the top trill key or the two top trill keys. (My everlasting gratitude to Av Galper for finding this one.)
Ken Shaw
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-05-29 20:47
Look at fingerings. You can also lip up/down altissimo tones relatively easily compared to the other registers.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-05-30 23:26
Thank you for everyone suggestion but we were looking more toward more technical suggestions from instrument tuning experts like undercutting, pad height adjustment, speaker tube shortening, etc..
While the alternative fingerings work they make some things like F -> F# trills cumbersome, and while flatness can be corrected with embouchure, fixing -40% and maintaining tone isn't as easy, as just playing alone on in-tune instrument. And it is not a player, player is perfectly in tune on Noblet 45 with the same mpc, co it is likely mismatch btw vintage instrument and mpc, or some other issues.
The instrument in question is more or less in tune; not on the same level as the best but not bad at all. I had cleaned speaker tube with bit and that helped (fixed 10% flat twelfths too). Not sure what additional steps could be taken, except saying get a Leblanc, try alternative fingerings, pull it up, etc
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-31 00:08
"co it is likely mismatch btw vintage instrument and mpc, or some other issues."
I apologize, I don't understand this part of the sentence. Are you saying it IS a likely mismatch, or are you saying that it cannot be a mismatch?
It would make things easier if you told us exactly what clarinet and what mouthpiece are getting you to 40 cents flat (I think that's what you said).
........Paul Aviles
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-05-31 03:01
yes I think mismatch is likely cause b/c these are a american vintage from 40-50s, and when we mapped intonation they all look similar. And no it is doubtful giving mpc/clarinet would help much as it is not likely you have much experience with Penzel-Muellers, Pruefers or Barklee, etc. Barklee would not be a good example b/c it is smaller bore comparing to other 15mm+. The mpcs are Vandorens and I think we tried a couple Selmers.. C85?
While it is possible to get a better match and use alternative fingerings to alleviate the problem, I am looking for tuning suggestions, better yet and article on correcting 3rd mode intonation issues. Given time and within the limit of instrument and with very minor undercutting I can get 1st and 2nd mode tuned to 5%, give or take. There are no obvious leaks, it passes vacuum test with flying colors.
I was hoping someone with B&H big bore experience would comment on matching them to modern mpcs, or someone who had to deal with similar flat altissimo problem would comment, thanks!
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-05-31 03:01
Consider other mouthpiece options. Since one is dealing with short upper length of clarinet.
Also, sometimes if one takes a bit of cane off Reed right at vent , or uses a Reed thicker at vent: depending
Also do well as making sure Reed vent is well matched to mouthpiece opening, can influence tuning. I think I have noticed if is longer on Reed, tendency for flatness.
Watch voicing too. (Tongue position)
Thoughts
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-31 03:23
As far as B&H big bore (1010) instruments are concerned they will only tune correctly with the properly sized mouthpiece bore, which in their case is 15.25mm the same size as the main instrument bore, and has to be essentially parallel throughout about 95% of it's length.
Modern mouthpieces can be used but only if they are reamed to the correct bore.
This reaming increases the total volume of mouthpiece and so lowers the overall pitch, which can be corrected either by using a shorter barrel or by shortening the actual mouthpiece by approx 2 mm.
The original B&H 1010 mouthpieces are typical about 2mm shorter than most other French style mouthpieces.
The mouthpiece bore shapes, tapers, diameters of older style (e.g. 20s,30s, 40s) mouthpieces are often significantly different from those in current production so you could experiment with some of those if available to assess the effect on the altissimo.
Since altissimo uses the highest partials and hence shorter wavelengths then the effect of bore changes at the very top of the bore (in the barrel and in the mouthpiece) should have a disproportional effect on the altissimo region.
You may want to talk with a mouthpiece maker on their experience in choosing bore sizes and tapers.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-31 05:31
Also, I have stated elsewhere that the 1010 mouthpiece is also SHORTER in length than standard French mouthpieces.
You're absolutely right that you will have a hard time finding an expert on particular vintage horns. You will also find a hard time finding a working mouthpiece from that era designed for your horn (bore width and length, size and shape of the tone chamber, overall length of the mouthpiece and other factors).
These are the things that will HEAVILY influence the pitch of your horns. In fact it may be that they are designed to play higher than A=440 (or whatever pitch center you are using) and the result of moving the pitch center down is causing an untenable situation with the highest partials.
I strongly feel (my opinion only - if that's not already obvious) that you have a mouthpiece issue NOT a clarinet bore issue. The acoustic design of the total instrument must be determined and realized to work properly.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-05-31 05:56)
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