 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Talipallo
Date: 2015-05-22 21:01
I have been playing clarinet for 8 months. This week I've been paying more attention to my embouchure since I've noticed that my lower lip gets tired quickly when I'm trying to play a piece that is longer than few minutes.
I cover my lower teeth slightly with my lip and keep the cornes of my mouth tight. However, when I'm playing my chin remains relaxed and soft when I touch it with my finger. I can play the notes up to the high C without much trouble. Beyond that I'm currently unable to play confidently.
Is this kind of soft, relaxed chin a sign of some obvious problem with my embouchure? If so, how could I correct it?
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-05-22 21:35
The High C Mean C5?
However....
You Must be relaxed for do those notes: if you aren't relaxed and you squeeze the reed you won't do high notes... think you must be absolutely relaxed for do C7 (and isn't easy..)
the only hint i can do for help is:
when you do those notes don't be afraid if you make mistake, don't worry.
when you do high notes blowing strong (and as I said a person , think of spitting in someone, the idea is that).
Not so much from classical music to these strong notes but do them well this is my advice. After you worry about her beautiful tune the note...
Post Edited (2015-05-22 22:04)
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Author: Talipallo
Date: 2015-05-22 21:48
No, I mean C6, the one that is on the second "extra" line. After this note it gets difficult to play and I can reach all the way up to G on the fourth "extra" line in legato, but not with tonguing.
At the moment my concern isn't so much my range but the endurance of my lower lip. For example, If I play Air on G String my lip starts to get tired and my form starts to break after playing about 6 measures in the second octave. I'm wondering whether this has something to do with my chin being completely relaxed (as opposed to flat).
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-05-22 22:17
I understand, i do a mistake before.
However i think to understand what's the problem and i was watching Air on the G string now... i tried with my clarinet and you are used to play for exercise yourself long notes (i think you know) is a one method for do long notes because is normal weary or do mistake...
One hint for do this piece is not do quickly but analize measure for measure...
Isn't easy sheet because you have to see the musical notations and time and you should be accuracy in effect.
If you do a mistake in only measure controll what have mistaken and reply until you fell do can do with tranquillity after, reply slowly. That i say before is important, the high notes when you do the passage, don't worry if you do mistake and reply. That's all hint a i can do...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-22 22:32
Ok, the FLAT, TIGHT chin area is a means to get your lower lip as thin and flat across your lower teeth as possible.
You mention the corners of your mouth. You need to form your embouchure as if pronouncing "Oehler" (which is properly pronounced as a combination of an "E" and and "O" sound.......I think you may have a good idea of this).
The "corners" of you mouth come down and in (NOT like a smile, but more "O" like).
The two other important elements to the embouchure are using your cheek muscles and using your upper lip muscles. The area about a half inch on either side of you lips (cheek muscles) should be firm as well. You'd engage these muscles trying to get a thick chocolate shake through a narrow straw. The upper lip draws down upon the top the the mouthpiece actively (more so the higher you go on the horn).
In short the whole embouchure is engaged around the mouthpiece. Think of it like a taught rubber band around the mouthpiece.
You may want to take a stab at double lip embouchure for a few minutes a day. Double lip more naturally develops embouchure technique.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Talipallo
Date: 2015-05-23 22:23
Thanks for all the input.
I tried the double lip embouchure today didn't notice any significant difference in my facial muscles between it and the single lip embouchure. I'll work on it and maybe it'll sort itself out.
I am familiar with the basic embouchure technique. The muscles on my cheek, upper and lower lips and the corners of the mouth are all actively enaged when I'm playing. My chin, however, remains relaxed - unused, if you will.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-05-23 22:32
Michelle Anderson has a good video on the basic embouchure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4aT5Uz6aoc
If you want double lip, Youtube William Ridenour.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-23 23:08
Talipallo wrote:
> I am familiar with the basic embouchure technique. The muscles
> on my cheek, upper and lower lips and the corners of the mouth
> are all actively engaged when I'm playing. My chin, however,
> remains relaxed - unused, if you will.
I'm not sure that a "pointed chin" or a "flat chin," as I think some players call it, is all that important in itself. It certainly isn't necessary that the chin be tense. The chin is controlled, it seems to me, by the jaw muscles, which shouldn't be exerting unnecessary force in any direction. I think some players use the pointed or flat chin as a way to prevent the lower jaw from pressing upward against the reed. Feeling as though the jaw is pulling downward to create the pointed chin acts as a check on the tendency to push upward as part of embouchure formation (as the opposition to flexing the jaw, if you like), which is mostly a function of the lips surrounding the mouthpiece. I more often think and talk to my students about opening the front of the mouth (not the back of the mouth or the throat, which can easily be misunderstood and lead to trouble).
Re your original post, can you explain a little more what you mean when you say "my lower lip gets tired quickly when I'm trying to play a piece that is longer than few minutes?" Does it get sore inside (where your teeth contact against it? Or do the muscles in the corners of your mouth start to lose strength and let air leak around the sides of the mouthpiece?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-24 01:49
No, actually I make my chin flat and firm so that the lower lip becomes as thin and smooth as possible. This gives the reed a smooth surface on which to sit and a slightly padded, but firm, platform for you to control the reed.
So you do NEED to create this lower lip configuration, and I really cannot think of another way to do it. If you lower lip remains flabby, you will have far less control of the reed and this may be in part responsible for the fatigue.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-24 03:36
Paul Aviles wrote:
> No, actually I make my chin flat and firm so that the lower lip
> becomes as thin and smooth as possible. This gives the reed a
> smooth surface on which to sit and a slightly padded, but firm,
> platform for you to control the reed.
>
>
> So you do NEED to create this lower lip configuration, and I
> really cannot think of another way to do it. If you lower lip
> remains flabby, you will have far less control of the reed and
> this may be in part responsible for the fatigue.
>
This may be where English reaches its limit and you need to be in the room to see what a person is describing instead of reading it. I don't understand why what Paul describes is necessary to produce a smooth, slightly padded but firm lip surface, nor how a thin lower lip over the reed produces a slightly padded surface.
So, I'm not going to dispute Paul's concern about the chin, but only say that I'd concentrate on his description of the lower lip's configuration and not so much on what your chin feels like. Certainly if the lower lip is flabby, something else will have to take up the slack in that part of your embouchure, and that could well explain early tiring. I find Paul's description in his earlier post of how the embouchure is formed to be easier to understand and closer to what my experience with embouchure is. I just don't have any consciousness of any particular involvement of my chin in what I do, and I think I do pretty much what Paul seems to be describing around the mouthpiece.
There are other possible explanations for tiring.
Karl
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Author: Talipallo
Date: 2015-05-24 10:41
I don't have the habit of biting the mouthpiece. My chin is practically fixed on a single spot when I play and I don't feel any pressure on my jaw muscles.
I don't strech my lower lip very strongly over my lower teeth. I have naturally thin lips and I found that stretching them too firmly makes my lips so thin that I lose quite a bit of control.
I suppose you could compare the dynamics of my lower lip to whistling. The lower lip gets contracted while the chin remains neutral. Naturally my lower lip is touching my lower teeth, but my teeth themselves don't put any pressure directly - or indirectly - on the mouthpiece.
When I say that my lower lip becomes tired, I'm referring to the part of my lips that's touching my lower teeth. I don't have any air leaking out, but due to fatigue I simply become unable to get a good tone and keeping my lip firm becomes really exhausting. Moreover, I quickly lose my control in the second octave and fail to get any sound at all. My instrument rarely squeaks and I usually regain the strength on my lower lip after resting for few seconds.
I have also recently started to use a neck strap due to recurring problems with my elbow, but I doubt this is important.
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2015-10-15 21:35
Hey there,
I'm not sure if the problem is resolved or not, since this post is a few months old. You've only been playing for eight months. Some endurance just takes time but I'm pretty impressed with your level of understanding of the embouchure and how it works!
I've never come across the issue of lower-lip fatigue, especially to the part of the lip that you're referring to but any fatigue from playing high notes is a sign that you might be trying too hard! High notes are easiest played when more relaxed. The neckstrap should actually help keep the clarinet from resting on the lower lip, too. You might also find it helpful to work on your voicing to reduce the effort your lips are making. Ensure that your tongue is high and forward.
A soft chin isn't a problem as long as you're not achieving a puckered chin (or strawberry chin). All this talk about pointing is to keep the jaw and lower lip from smothering the reed. If that's not a problem, then I think you should look elsewhere for a solution for your fatigue.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-10-15 23:46
Another possible cause of fatigue at this level - are you opening your mouth to breathe, or are you keeping the embouchure engaged and either breathing in through the instrument or the nose? It is important to open the mouth when taking in air as this is 1) the best way to get sufficient air and 2) it provides a chance for the embouchure to rest and recover momentarily at regular intervals. The endurance of muscles is much better when they are allowed to tense and relax in cycle rather than just stay tense to the point of fatigue.
Anders
Post Edited (2015-10-16 09:00)
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