 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-04-27 23:00
Attachment: hallmark 003rev.jpg (946k)
I recently acquired a set of H. Bettoney Silva Bets and both the Key of A and Bb have what appears to be a hallmark on a couple of keys after the serial number. Check out the photo of the G# key on the lower joint portion. Any input would be appreciated.
Post Edited (2015-04-27 23:15)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-04-28 01:21
I don't think that's a hallmark - more like a piece number that relates to that touchpiece or it may be a factory number so the keys are stamped with a number that relates to the clarinet so they know which keys belong to which instrument if they're all mixed up when being plated.
On a hidden area of a key (such as where a key cork is normally glued onto), see if the base metal is silver or nickel silver by filing or scraping the key. If there's no change on colour, then it's solid metal, but if the base metal is a pale yellowy colour, then it's nickel silver.
Hallmarks usually have all manner of figures and shapes, as well as the number denoting the quality of the silver (925 for sterling silver which is 92.5% silver). Hallmarks are usually stamped in a single line and done neatly - let's face it, the numbers stamped on the underside of this key look like they were stamped by someone who's had a few too many at lunchtime on a Friday!
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,4164/hallmark%20003rev.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-04-28 02:41
Thanks Chris. I am going to take it to a jeweler tomorrow and have him do a silver test on it.
Post Edited (2015-04-28 02:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-04-28 03:05
I can't quite make out the figure to the right of the number - that could be another figure or a hollow in the casting.
Your jeweller will be the best bet to determining exactly what the keys are made from, plus they'll have all manner of magnifying glasses to see the numbers and that elusive figure or mark better.
The best place to do a test on is the underside of a linkage piece such as the RH E/B or F#/C# key or the underside of the linkages on the thumb ring or LH1 ring key as they'll either be well hidden or covered with a piece of silencing material.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-04-30 18:15
It will be interesting to hear the verdict of the jeweler. Silver has always been relatively expensive, and making clarinet keys out of sterling would be a great extravagance when nickel silver (not actually silver at all) serves well enough. I think that the Silva-Bet was made entirely of nickel silver, and silver plated.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-05-01 03:46
The verdict is silver plated. But you never know so it pays to check because there was an option for solid silver keys on Silva Bet clarinets.
Post Edited (2015-05-01 03:47)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-05-01 06:18
The Silva Bet was not the only clarinet that offered solid silver keys. I have a Selmer Model 55 that has solid silver keys. Unfortunately, the metal is soft enough that the ring keys are excessively worn and the keys, in general, go out of adjustment fairly easily. It is much better to look at than to try to play.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-01 07:38
You now only tend to see high end flutes and piccolos made with solid silver keywork as standard nowadays as well as some top end oboes specially ordered with them. Maybe some clarinets too as a special order, but the majority will have silver or even gold plated keywork as opposed to entirely solid silver keys.
And with plated keys and other parts, the base metals used are usually nickel silver for key rods, key barrels and pad cups and some cast pieces (touchpieces, ring keys and some keys), sometimes bronze is used for cast pieces and brass is often used for socket rings, spring catches and key barrels. They're all then hard soldered (silver soldered) together to make the keys.
A lot of German clarinets have entire keys cast in one piece in nickel silver, so they're filed, papered up and polished to achieve the desired finish and fitted to the instruments before (and after) plating.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-01 07:49
I have a very expensive Powell flute that has sterling silver keys and rods. It makes absolutely no difference in the sound of the flute, and steel that is silver plated would be much stronger and look the same. I think it is about ego or bragging rights rather than being practical.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-01 09:22
The only flutes I know made with stainless steel keywork are by Stephen Wessel. http://www.wessel-flutes.co.uk/
When I bought a pro level flute I went with a Yamaha 674 as the more recent 600 series flutes have nickel silver keywork as opposed to being all solid silver as they once were. I couldn't really see the point in the extra expense of solid silver keys that the 774 has as that won't have any effect on the tone at all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-05-01 09:23)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-05-01 18:30
There are many grades of nickel-silver (a.k.a. "German silver", cupronickel, etc.) and the better grades are very strong, take a good shine, and with frequent wiping and occasional polishing will stay nice-looking. Cheaper grades of nickel-silver (e.g. whatever Malerne used for their common alto and bass clarinets, house-branded or 'stencil') have a yellowish tint, tarnish readily and are soft and flexible -- not recommended. Whereas German instruments, in my experience (mostly F. Arthur and G. Rudolph Uebel and Kohlert), tend to use a very good grade of the metal and I would prefer it over solid silver.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-05-02 17:31
I think in the U.S. during the 20th c. the keys would be marked with the word "Sterling" itself. That is how my Frank Holton Sterling metal clarinet keys are marked. Interestingly enough, I have some some suspicions these could have been made by Bettony...
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-06-29 00:37
Modernicus,
I recently acquired a Holton sterling silver clarinet serial number S2058 with the gold wash bell. Do you have any information about theses or a place on the web that I can reference. How rare are they? Anything that you you can tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very very much.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-06-29 09:58
You may find that your Silva Bet clarinets have excellent tuning as my full Boehm Bb Silva Bet does. Even the low E and F are right on as is the altissimo. One wonders why Bettoney could tune a clarinet so well when many other makers don't seem to. A low F correction key would not be needed on one of these.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2015-07-19 08:25
I have never seen an option for solid silver keys on Silva Bet catalog pages. The Silva Bet was offered in 7 different models (different keywork) and each model was available in 3 different finishes. The design for the adjustable barrel changed over time and they offered a non-adjustable barrel.
I'd like to know where you saw the option for solid silver keys?
FYI Holton made a metal clarinet with solid silver keys. And of course the WM. Haynes was solid silver.
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2015-07-19 08:52
At least with solid silver keys, you wouldn't have to worry about the plating wearing through. At about $15/oz currently, I'd spring for it if the cost was somewhat proportional to the actual material cost.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2015-07-21 10:11
Solid silver is a bit softer, so it is easier to bend the keys. This may depend on what else is in the alloy and the proportions. When you heat up solid silver keys, to float pads, the heat runs through the keys quickly. I have had keys get too hot to hold -- this never happens with plated keys. I'm sure better techs deal with this easily. But if a key breaks, soldiering solid silver is tricky. The melting point of the solder is only a little below the melting point of the key.
Just found a Conn catalog from the 1890s offering solid silver keys on the Wonder model metal clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-07-21 16:57
I've made some solid Sterling silver kework for a cor anglais (for a member of the oboe board) and didn't have any problems hard soldering it all together using Easi-Flo solder, but the conductivity of solid silver is definitely greater compared to nickel silver and brass.
When I used to work for a local music shop I overhauled an old solid silver Haynes flute and simply heating the keys when installing the small pads with shellac, the heat was conducted through the entire key making them uncomfortable to hold.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-07-23 06:05
@ Clarineteer, most of the info I have is from a post on this board I made in the past where I believe Jim Lande replied with knowledge of these. That was the only info I could find! They come up occasionally at auction, now more readily identified from me posting about the web it seems!? They are among the rarest single walled pro-type metal clarinets from my observation. If yours is the one I'm thinking of, it is the nicest I've seen. Mine does have the 7 rings, which seems to be less common on these?
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