 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bbrandha
Date: 2015-04-29 08:50
I would take this problem to a repair tech if I had one, but I don't. I live in a rural area. The nearest tech is over an hour away and his advice on antique clarinets is basically to throw them away and get a new one. I do not trust him to work on my instruments.
I recently got an old Rampone e-flat clarinet. The wooden mouthpiece and barrel are stuck together. The barrel has a closed crack that goes all the way through. The previous owner got the other pieces apart and it appears the cork and wood were completely fused. Who knows how many decades since this poor clarinet had been taken apart?
Do you know a repair tech I could ship it to? OR do you have suggestions for getting them apart? OR should I just learn to love it this way?
This isn't the only work it needs, but the rest I hope to do myself. I cannot justify the expense of a professional rebuild on a $50 project horn.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-29 09:50
The same thing happened to me when I picked up an old Albert system instrument at an antique store. Try rocking the mouthpiece back and forth (fairly hard, but not so hard that the tenon would snap or anything.) It took a long time, but that finally did the trick for me.
The mouthpiece and barrel had been stuck together for so long that some of the cork was essentially glued to the barrel and I had to scrape/sand it off.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-04-29 12:40
I recently had to solve a similar situation (barrel stuck on top tenon - clearly been there for 50+ years). First step was to get plenty of bore oil down the barrel in the hope that it would percolate into the stuck joint. Then you have to warm the outside of the barrel to expand it: I heated a slightly damp cloth in a microwave and wrapped it round the barrel. Then dry both pieces and get a really good grip (e.g. with rubber gloves) before twisting hard. If none of that works completely (it didn't in this case) then you indeed have to rock the joint gently. If it moves to the slightest degree, you can lever it further apart by inserting a thin blade into the initial gap; I got good results with a Stanley knife (box cutter in the US). Once you've levered open the gap even slightly, repeating heating and twisting usually finishes the job.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-29 18:40
1) Kudos for giving this old instrument the TLC it deserves. I hope you get to the end of your project with a playable horn and an appropriate level of pride.
2) It is a shame there are so many techs (and instructors, and ______) with such poor attitudes about things they know so little about. I don't expect everybody to agree, quite the contrary- there's a very wide gulf of reasonable preferences and opinions. But we all seem to recognize true garbage when we see or hear it, and it's too bad when that influences the young student or others with limited knowledge. Glad you knew better. That said, I can still respect the contribution of just about everyone in the clarinet community- most of us will admit to clinging to a screwball idea or 2.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-04-29 19:41
I've previously mentioned a tool I made up specifically for this problem of stuck joints/barrels. I took a piece of quarter inch brass rod about a foot in length and brazed a steel washer on the end like a hat. It depends on there being a gap between the barrel and the bottom of the tenon. Insert the rod into the bore carefully from the end opposite the stuck joint until the steel disc drops into the gap. Then tap the end of the rod with a mallet or similar. This applies force directly in line with the axis of the bore and I've found it to be a very effective method of freeing stuck joints.
If there isn't a gap at the stuck joint then this won't work for you, but as soon as you can open it up slightly to provide the necessary gap it will work well. I've used it to free quite a few stuck joints and have never yet marked or damaged a bore. Rocking the bore and inserting a blade as described above generally provides enough gap.
Tony F.
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Author: SteveP
Date: 2015-04-29 19:44
Please do a search on this forum. A few weeks ago I posted a note about using automotive blade type feeler gauges in exactly this situation. It works, is cheap, and minimizes the chance of damage to either the instrument or your fingers.
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Author: j8649
Date: 2015-04-30 06:02
Hello,
I had the same problem a few months ago when it was winter, and the humidity was low. I put the stuck pieces in a sealed tuperware bowl with a damp sponge for a day. Then I place a warm, damp dish cloth around the barrel for about 2 minutes. I dried the barrel off and twisted the pieces with rubber dish glove on. It did the trick. I hope this helps. As an owner of several vintage horns, it is worth the trouble to restore old horns. The can play great if properly cared for!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-04-30 09:37
If twisting and pulling really hard and doing the same with non-slipping gloves doesn't work, then the method desrcibed with knife/razor/etc. between the parts usually works. Even if there is no gap this will usually create a tiny gap.
Re heating that was mentioned. A metal ring will expand both inside and outside diameters when heated. I tried to find if a wood ring (e.g. a clarinet barrel) would behave the same or not. It might expand outside but inside diameter could get smaller. After asking many experts and/or knowledgable clarinet and barrel makers (several of which are often mentioned and praised on this forum), it turned out opinions varied significantly. It didn't seem that many really knew (it was about 50/50 and neither half seemed more reputable than the other).
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-04-30 16:32
Interesting. I have put the clarinet parts in the fridge for a while to get them apart.
Steve Ocone
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-04-30 20:04
Clarnibass, Steven Ocone:
You raise some interesting questions. I think it should be considered obvious that a ring of a single material will expand both its inner and outer diameters when it is heated to a uniformly higher temperature (all the atoms move apart, so it's just like using a magnifying glass).
Where things get interesting is when you have different materials, or when the temperature isn't uniform. Here are some expansion coefficients I found on the web, in units of parts per million fractional increase per 1 degree C:
Nickel: 13
Wood: 50
Ebonite: 77
in detail, I couldn't get data for blackwood: the nearest hardwood I found was oak. Also note that this is for expansion across the grain (as we need): along the grain is 10 times less.
So if you have a stuck mouthpiece, Steven's approach should indeed work: put it all in the fridge and let it come to a uniform temperature. The ebonite will shrink the most and the mouthpiece can be extracted more easily.
But when we're heating a barrel, you don't get a uniform temperature. Wood is a poor conductor of heat, so the outer parts will expand, as will the metal ring (to a larger extent, as it will all immediately reach the higher temperature). Both these expansions will relieve pressure on the inner parts of the barrel joint, which can then expand a little - hopefully making it easier to twist out the stuck mouthpiece or tenon.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-05-01 08:44
The thing is, more than one very reputable barrel maker or clarinet repairer claimed thta a wood ring (i.e. a clarinet barrel) would have both inside and outside diameters get larger when heated, while more thna one very reputable barrel maker or repairer claimed the exact opposite.
So what to do... you can do what I did. Take an old wood barrel that you don't need (but any wood ring might work), measure inside and outside diameters and put it in the toaster oven... bon appétit
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Author: bbrandha
Date: 2015-05-05 06:42
As this mouthpiece is also wood, I assume they would expand the same. I will try some of these ideas. My grip doesn't slip much, but even though I have fairly small woman's hands, those darn pieces are tiny! I worry that I will go all Hulk on them and squash them with my mighty grip. Probably not, I know, but it just seems delicate.
I will report back.
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Author: bbrandha
Date: 2015-05-09 08:09
I did it! They came apart! I wiggled and twisted and said encouraging things and then said bad things. A ring came off of the barrel. And then... success!
Now for the next part of the journey...
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-05-09 19:44
Patience and persistence are good things. Congratulations.
I don't think my uncle's advice of "Don't force it, get a bigger hammer" applies to clarinets.
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