 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clari123
Date: 2015-04-23 20:48
Hello. Can anyone please shed some light on the difference between the Vandoren 13-series vs. the traditional non 13-series mouthpieces? Particularly, the M30 Profile 88 facing, please.
I understand that the 13-series is tuned to 440 whereas the non 13-series is tuned to 442 (or around there). However, have any of you experimented with both and discovered any discrepancies other than pitch (i.e. tone, control, articulation, etc.)?
I recently tried a batch of M30 Profile 88 13-series and even with a 65mm Moennig barrel, I was still playing WAY under pitch. I've read posts about people getting the 13-series and having it shortened to bring it up to pitch. Is this adjustment worth it?
I'm planning to order a batch of the non-13 series and give them a try but if anyone could offer some of their experience before I do so, that would be wonderful. Thank you advance for your help!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-23 21:50
I just had direct experience with 13 vs. NON 13 in Masters mouthpiece. It is literally JUST the difference in one mouthpiece being higher in pitch.
DO NOT take the advertised tuning as some actual number. One mouthpiece plays HIGHER and the other plays LOWER - that's it.
So if you have trouble keeping your throat notes up to pitch (which I would not doubt) with the 13 series, the solution is to go the higher pitched route. It doesn't even perturb the internal pitch relationship at all (just raises everything the same percentage).
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-24 14:26
Paul Aviles wrote:
> So if you have trouble keeping your throat notes up to pitch
> (which I would not doubt) with the 13 series, the solution is
> to go the higher pitched route. It doesn't even perturb the
> internal pitch relationship at all (just raises everything the
> same percentage).
The tests I have made indicate that it does affect the relative pitch between tones, in the same way as pulling the barrel or using a bigger bore barrel does.
If it didn't it would be a piece of magic from Vandoren's side...
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-24 16:53
Labels mean very little. The ONLY thing that matters is how a mouthpiece plays with your embouchure, your barrel and your clarinet. If it can't be played in tune, it's worthless regardless of it's good qualities.
Also, machine-made mouthpiece (such as Vandoren) have significant sample-to-sample variation. You should try several of each type.
Ken Shaw
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-24 17:55
My M30-lyre (non 13 series) plays higher than my 5RV-lyre (non 13 series) ... but, my 13 series equivalents are lower in pitch, but I can't say by exactly 2 Hz. It's just a general trend ... the 13 series are slightly lower in pitch.
Some people say the 13 series, having a bigger internal dimensions, have a different sound (warmer) but don't respond as well ... not sure about this.
The reeds and you use can make almost as much difference in pitch as the MP ... Legere Classics are flatter, especially in the high register ... Legere Signature are higher pitched as are Vandoren cane reeds.
I really like the M13 (non lyre) with Legere reeds, Classic and Quebec ... the Signatures are fussy and take more of a search for a compatible MP, IMHO. You can get plenty of volume out of the M13 and it's warm, compact, easily controlled and with a nice"hold" ...
Tom
Post Edited (2015-04-25 01:44)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-24 21:40
Ah, you got me on a technicality. Yes, you are correct about the overall pitch correction being more within short tube notes. I guess the affect to which I refer is where there ARE actual acoustic specifics that are incompatible with each other, such as Boosey 1010 mouthpieces on a French clarinet or even a German mouthpiece (made FOR German system clarinets) on a French clarinet.
Since I always preferred the higher pitched Vandorens I assumed there were more things wrong with the flatter ones. It is ONLY the lowering where you'd expect lowering (yes your low "E" and "F" ARE also lower but not as much).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2015-04-25 02:14
The larger dimensions of the 13 series create a choke in the response so are naturally a bit different in response speed...albeit this is something one adjust to like changing a helmut or glove in baseball. However, all things being equal the ear is the guide in any situation
David Dow
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-25 02:28
clari123,
I only have one 13 mouthpiece (M30), but I haven't found any different playing characteristics.
You can try different barrels (length and/or bore dimension). It will affect tuning in the same way as switching between 13 and regular mouthpieces does.
Post Edited (2015-04-25 16:33)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-25 15:19
One man's experience that happened only once is only that (we should be careful about extrapolating any usable information from it), HOWEVER, in my 'one-shot' trial my 13 Series version actually played quicker (I think in my case it really was more an artifice of a slight and unintentional difference in the lay for the EXACT same advertised mouthpiece dimensions).
But I must add that I would have expected the affect described by Mr. Dow, I just didn't get it.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Guillaume
Date: 2015-04-25 21:37
When I was studying with Michel Arrignon between 2001 and 2003, some of my friends used to play a B40 13 that they had made cut so that the pitch was 442. I remember that if they made such a weird choice, it was that they found the sound was a bit different - warmer I think with the 13 series.
I did not tried that myself though...
Guillaume
http://www.guillaume-jouis.com
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-26 01:21
Attachment: M30 13.jpg (43k)
Attachment: M30 normal.jpg (46k)
Just to illustrate how the internal tuning can be affected.
M30 13: +1 cent relative to 440 Hz
M30 normal: +12 cents relative to 440 Hz
This instrument is excellent with the 13 mouthpiece but average with the regular version.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-26 02:47
Dear Johan,
My guess is that you play the M30 13 Series all the time (or most often)?
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-04-26 02:48)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-26 04:04
Paul,
Not really. I usually play the regular M30 and a Backun 67 or 68 mm barrel to get to 440 Hz.
On that particular clarinet and barrel (66 mm), it worked out very well with the 13 mouthpiece.
Maybe I should compare those two combinations on this very clarinet... could be something for tomorrow.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-26 04:49
Gosh I wasn't expecting that response at all (given the chart).
Perhaps I am not interpreting your data correctly, but it looked like the 13 Series is more "flat" in response (on average).
Anyway, I prefer my standard pitch Vandorens. I don't really get that specific with the pitch tendency per note, but I appreciate having the "headroom" when it's needed. If you ride intonation too close to a pushed in barrel, you're just askin' for trouble.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-04-26 11:03)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-26 11:52
No, the chart only shows internal intonation, the relative difference in pitch between tones. The sum of all values in the graph will be 0.
The absolute pitch can be derived by adding the figures I wrote: +1 for the M30 13 and +12 for the M30 regular. This means the M30 13 is almost spot on while the M30 regular is 4 cents sharp on average (442 Hz = 440 Hz + 8 cents). That small difference (+1 to +4) could be due to the instrument warming up.
Hope this makes things clear.
Post Edited (2015-04-26 12:01)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-26 20:16
Ok, first off I will try to be clear on my intent. I am NOT trying to be critical on a personal level - so please forgive me if it comes off that way. What I would like to do is understand what is going on (for you) vis a vie what might be helpful for you AS WELL as others in the same situation.
That said (now that I have taken more than two seconds to actually just look at the shape of the graph), it seem to me, taking both graphs together that what is happening is that you exert too much embouchure pressure on the reed. The 13 series "seems" in-tune at second ledger line "C" above the staff, but you've perturbed it to be 'high' relative to the "standard pitch" mouthpiece that you show being flat. The "standard pitch" mouthpiece seems flat (right there) because you've pulled out (or used a longer barrel) to tune to your middle "C" but can't possibly pinch enough to bring up pitch at the short tube length for the second ledger above the staff "C."
Another indicator of the "pinching effect" are the sharp notes toward the bottom of your chalumeau register. These should be more even with the first ledger below the staff "C."
I think it is a matter of 'relaxing' your embouchure (while still maintaining the CORE of the sound of course). I don't recall if you may have stated at some other point whether you used double lip embouchure on occasion, but this would be a GREAT time to start.
.......and if I'm wrong.......
I apologize further!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-27 03:38
Paul,
"what is happening is that you exert too much embouchure pressure on the reed"
No. The difference is real and has to do with mouthpiece volume. The same effect can be accomplished with bigger bore barrels.
Actually, the instrument in question was delivered new with two 65 mm barrels. A mistake, I thought, until I took the caliper out and measured them. One had 0.1 mm larger bore.
"Another indicator of the "pinching effect" are the sharp notes toward the bottom of your chalumeau register."
The curve looks like that for almost every clarinet. The clarion register is the solo register and has higher priority.
".......and if I'm wrong.......
I apologize further!"
Accepted. ;-)
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