 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-20 20:20
I play on a M15 which i like. But I noticed today when balancing reeds that I always have to thin the right side of reeds and that when trialing other mouthpieces the reeds that work on mine are always out of balance.
When I look closely I can see that the right rail is thicker than the left.
Image:
http://goo.gl/yL8b5i
1. Should I try finding a new M15 with more equal rails?
2. Are there more variation one Should measure or eyeball to ensure a good sample of a mouthpiece? (after playing of course)
3. Are there any additional side effects with a mouthpiece with uneven rails other than reeds having be adjusted to compensate?
Would I play better or have easier time balancing reeds well if the rails are more even?
I read T Ridenours article on asymmetrical curves, but i dont think this applies here right?
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-04-20 20:51)
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2015-04-20 20:32
It is possible your mouthpiece CURVE is asymmetrical. I have not found that rail thickness heavily influences left/right balance and response. It may be worth trying a few more M15s if you like the one you have to see if your reeds play more easily.
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-20 20:52
Is it possible to check without advanced tools if the curve is assymmetrical too?
Regards
Peter
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-20 20:52
I don't think Vandoren puts asymmetries in their facing curve or rails as part of the design ... but it could be there just the same, due to a manufacturing tolerances/errors or some warpage that has occurred in use and storage.
I've always had problems with Vandoren's close facing MPs being susceptible to reed whistles and chirps ... that is, the 5RV-lyre and closer ... I have a couple of M13s that encourage reeds with tip imbalance to chirp and whistle. Other brands generally not a problem with the same reed (weird). One reason I use Legere reeds a lot ...
Rather than search through a bunch of new MPs, I'd get a really good MP maker/re-finisher to check it and make adjustments ... will be cheaper and less trouble.
Brad Behn, David McClune, Tom Ridenour and several others can do this for you ...
Tom
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-20 20:58
Yes I am also thinking this is only due to production tolerances being too wide.
I don't get chirps at all on this setup, so at least that's fine.
I would love to have it worked on, however I live in Sweden and don't know of any local makers. I'd love to send it off to someone reputable but then I'd have to be without my mouthpiece for long enough that I'd need a replacement.
Perhaps I could play my old mouthpiece a while, but I'm afraid I'll get bad habits when switching back
Regards
Peter
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-20 21:04
I don't know who is close to where you live ... but I am sure the American MP makers/re-finishers do work on an international basis ...
Someone will post some good suggestions ...
Tom
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-04-20 21:28
I don't think Vandoren uses asymmetrical facings--it could be that your reeds are just thicker on the right side, or maybe you play with the mouthpiece slightly off-center.
I also think Tom Ridenour overstates (or even creates) the issues of asymmetrical facings. Many well known players use these types of mouthpieces without any problems. I've played a beautiful (and asymmetrical) Johnston piece for about eight years; it responds well throughout all registers and is very reed-friendly, and I never feel the need to bite. I'm also able to switch back to a symmetrical Kaspar without any problems.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-20 21:30
Interesting insight into the "chirp" syndrome, "TomS." I had one M13 that chirped quite a bit. The only thing about refacing is that you can make it BIGGER but trying to stay the same and work out the chirp is would involve a great deal of work (lowing the table). I had a guy work on my chirpy M13 and it improved the situation but did not eliminate it, AND still made the facing larger. Next time I will be far more inclined to make sure there is NO chirp to begin with.
The tolerances that effect balance are far too small to pick up by "eye-balling" (this would be the amount of distance from the reed to the rail at various points). Even with the right tools it is not easy to alway pick out small discrepancies.
My vote is that it is much easier (an not that much more money....depending on who you might consult for mouthpiece tweaking) to just get a new Vandoren. If you were dealing with a $300.00 mouthpiece, it might be a different story.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-04-20 22:42)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-20 22:24
Paul Aviles wrote:
> My vote is that it is much easier (an not that much
> more....depending on who you might consult for mouthpiece
> tweaking) to just get a new Vandoren. If you were dealing with
> a $300.00 mouthpiece, it might be a different story.
And if you go this route, you'd be best off ordering 2 or 3 and sending the ones you don't want to keep back (use a supplier that allows this without a restocking fee if you buy at least one). Vandorens are mass-produced, but there is variability among them.
Vandoren reeds have a reputation for being unbalanced, so it could well be the reeds and not the mouthpiece causing the problem. Used to be they were often heavy on the left. Now, they seem to have shifted the extra strength to the other side. What reeds are you using?
Karl
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 00:45
Thanks guys!
The problem is, How do I know if the new mouthpiece is good?
I cant trust reeds because they can be off balance, and I cant judge it by eye.
I guess i will have to attempt balancing a box of reeds for each mouthpiece and see which gets the best results perhaps?
Ill see if I can get 2-3 m15 ordered somewhere.
Regards
Peter
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-21 01:34
On asymmetric facings ... I played a Pyne (M series, I think) for a few months. had a lot of resistance and the sound was kinda hard in the upper clarion register ...
But, it tuned perfectly and played intervals very, very well. One of the section members highly complemented my sound ...
I gave it up, after a while ... had actually borrowed it from a lady that changed to a PK chamber (I think) ... It was really just too hard of a blow for me ...
I think some MP makers swear by asymmetric facings and others swear at them ...
When Elmer Aiello was developing the Marcellus MP, he was trying to get something to please. He noted that Robert Marcellus MP (Kaspar) had a very slight asymmetry in the facing ... so he added that to his prototype ... but nope, that didn't fix the design. I think it turned out to be something more mundane like the bore diameter and length ... the production MP had symmetrical facing, because what little crooked facing was in the original Kaspar MP didn't matter much.
As it turns out, it's more difficult to get symmetrical than asymmetrical ... any facing error will result in asymmetry ... although it could be too much/too little, wrong taper or on the wrong side.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-04-21 01:35)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 02:02
faltpihl wrote:
> Thanks guys!
>
> The problem is, How do I know if the new mouthpiece is good?
> I cant trust reeds because they can be off balance, and I cant
> judge it by eye.
>
> I guess i will have to attempt balancing a box of reeds for
> each mouthpiece and see which gets the best results perhaps?
Well, wait. Going back to your original post, you asked whether the asymmetry you saw in the rail thicknesses could explain your having to consistently balance the right side of your reeds. If, after you've balanced a reed to this mouthpiece, the playing qualities of the reed/mouthpiece combination are what you want, then the problem isn't that it's a bad mouthpiece, only that it's maybe a little less reed friendly than it might be. Even if you find another M15 that doesn't make you do the extra reed work, you may not have any better a mouthpiece to play on.
It's easy, BTW, to check on whether or not the curve is symmetrical. Put a reed on the mouthpiece and let a fairly thin piece of paper slide down between the rails and the reed. Mouthpiece aficionados and refacers use a piece of plate glass (in place of the reed) and a set of flat metal feeler gauges to do this as well as to find out more detail about the curve on its way down to where the rails and the reed meet. But the slip of paper will give you an indication of whether the curve is the same on both rails. Without forcing the paper any further once it stops, if the paper is perpendicular to the edges of the reed, the curve is for most purposes symmetrical. If the paper stops higher on one side than the other - looks slanted compared to the reed, the the curve may be asymmetrical enough to explain your problem with reed imbalance. If the right side of your reeds seems consistently too heavy, it could be explained if the curve is shorter (the paper stops higher) on the right side - a shorter curve tends to cause more resistance than a longer one.
As has already been mentioned, there are players who actually prefer asymmetrical facings and probably many others who like their mouthpieces' performance in other ways and decide to live with the accommodations they need to make in their reeds.
If, once you have the reed balanced for this mouthpiece, you like the result, there may be no reason to do anything but keep doing what you're doing.
Karl
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-04-21 14:30
kdk wrote:
...
> It's easy, BTW, to check on whether or not the curve is
> symmetrical. etc.
>
> Karl
That's not a very good procedure. A reed isn't necessarily very flat and a single piece of paper only measures symmetry at a single point on the curve. Better to use feeler gauges and a mirror or the shiny side of the Vandoren glass abrasive plate. A set of feeler gauges costs about the same as a couple of reeds so not a huge expense.
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 14:39
I am tempted to try ordering 2-3 M15 to see if I notice any playing difference with a balanced reed to a more symmetrical mouthpiece.
Since I'm rather new on the clarinet I don't know how much easier/better my playing could possibly become by having a better setup.
A sidenote that is probably unrelated:
I have been feeling a few times recently that my reeds feel great when I'm balancing them but get worse and worse in time, after only a few hours I have forgotten how good they felt until I balance a few new reeds.
Not sure if this has anything to do with my mouthpiece, probably not.
(I play V21 3.5)
Regards
Peter
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-21 16:10
I've noted several instances of on this board where folks speak of balancing as they BEGIN the process of breaking in a reed. While this sounds like it saves time and frustration by addressing the problems immediately, reeds DON'T work that way. Many reeds such as the Vandoren V12 and the V21 take at least 4 days of re-hydrating before you can even begin to assess how they actually play. So if you begin to balance before the reed reveals its actual tendencies, it will settle DIFFERENTLY 2 or 3 days down the road from where you may have started chopping into it.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 17:05
Dibbs wrote:
>
> That's not a very good procedure. A reed isn't necessarily
> very flat and a single piece of paper only measures symmetry at
> a single point on the curve.
Of course that's true. If you're trying to get an accurate picture of a mouthpiece's curve, you couldn't rely on using a piece of paper and a reed. All the OP wants to know is whether or not there's an asymmetry in the curve sufficient to cause his reeds to seem unbalanced, since the consensus he's gotten is that it isn't being caused by the uneven rail widths.
I suggested a simple, quick screening method as an easy way with at-hand materials to get a rough answer to his question within a few seconds of reading my post. If he finds a pronounced asymmetry in the curve using paper and reed, then he probably has his answer, however imprecise. If he's interested in checking further, he can locate the feelers and glass and go into more detail - or he can decide either to send the mouthpiece off to a refacer or replace it outright.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-21 17:31
Even on the Reserve MPs, that are allegedly machined to the highest tolerances, I can SEE differences between different MPs and also side rail and tip rail asymmetries. They all play pretty well, though ... very good MP. Good job
d'Addario!
One famous (name withheld) MP maker/re-finisher is of the opinion that the Vandoren MPs are the most consistent of all production MPs (this was before the reserve). He even had a model that started out with the M-series as a "blank".
Again, with machine made stuff, I say: "trust, but verify" ... There is no substitute for a master craftsman with a keen eye, a steady hand and the ability to play test their work at a high level. That's why, I suspect, people like Brad Behn don't worry much about MPs like the Reserve.
Tom
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-04-21 19:00
Quote:
I've noted several instances of on this board where folks speak of balancing as they BEGIN the process of breaking in a reed........Many reeds such as the Vandoren V12 and the V21 take at least 4 days of re-hydrating before you can even begin to assess how they actually play.
While I often save fine adjustments for a few days, if I find that a reed is significantly out of balance, with one side having quite a bit more stiffness, I will often do some adjustment right from the start. I have never had any issues or ill effects doing it this way. I recall someone, possibly Tom Ridenour, advocating doing adjustment from the first day. There are many ways to go about this, and I am sure everyone has their own method.
Regarding the OP, I would not worry about the mouthpiece based on looks if you like the way it plays. If not, try a few others. If you find another that works great, you might consider sending the first one off to a refaced who can tweak it for you.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-21 19:14
I'm sure reeds "listen" to Tom Ridenour, but for the rest of us I put my box of reeds in order (1 through 10 with ten being the best) after each five minute session for 4 days straight. In that time, the V12s and V21s slide around in the order ALL OVER THE place (and those reeds even continue to be "wild stalions" for some weeks afterwards as well). That includes balance issues since the un-hydrated wood behaves differently.
Tom must put a spell on his reeds. He should give us the incantation.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2015-04-21 20:08
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> "Tom must put a spell on his reeds. He should give us the incantation."
Tom is magician when it comes to clarinets and reeds. He has given us a wealth of information, but I fear the incantations may only be passed down to his closest deciples.
AAAClarinet
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 20:40
I have a theory that is most certainly false, but if there is any truth to it it could be a reason for having an easier time with a perfectly symmetrical mouthpiece:
What if many of the changes a reed goes through in the beginning, has to do with the reed somehow trying to "balance itself" to a natural symmetrical state?
So that with a perfectly symmetrical mouthpiece, the reed only gets better and better as you break it in.
But if your mouthpiece is more resistant on one side, you will constantly have to make adjustments on that side.
I believe what has happened to my reeds that have "gone bad" was always fixed by scraping some more on the resistant side (right side in my case).
I will try to take more notes in my reed handling to see if I can make up some hokum theory in the future
Regards
Peter
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-21 21:12
faltpihl wrote:
> So that with a perfectly symmetrical mouthpiece, the reed only
> gets better and better as you break it in.
>
Not in my experience.
I think, intuitively with no data or research to support me, that the reasons a reed is unbalanced are 2: it was originally cut unevenly (thicker on one side), which given current technology would almost have to be a deliberate design feature; or one side is more dense (or more porous) than the other and reacts differently to moisture from the very start and continues to react the same way until it has reached some kind of limit.
The second case would probably fit Paul's idea to let a reed settle before doing anything to it so that any expansion in the fibers as a result of exposure to water reaches its limit before trying to correct the imbalance.
I have always suspected, given the tendency of Vandoren reeds to be consistently heavier on one side or the other (historically on the left, now apparently for some reason on the right), that they'd have to be cutting them that way. You just couldn't (I don't think) control the density levels of each reed from side to side so closely. There used to be a theoretical reason why the left side was made heavier, whether players bought into it or not. I don't know what the explanation of a heavier right side would be.
Which, BTW, is why I asked earlier if you were using Vandorens and if you had tried other brands, most of which are, I find, more consistently balanced as they come out of the box. (But I still prefer Vandorens and put up with the initial balance problems.)
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-04-21 21:57
Every reed is different as is each climate. Different mouthpieces require slightly different reeds and we all have different tastes. I have heard many different theories and procedures. Some don't "break in" reeds at all, some use a length process. Some keep them constantly hydrated, some seal their reeds with various substances, some sand them or rub them on paper, some don't believe in sealing at all. The variations are endless.
My point is that each person should find what works best for him/her. You can find endless posts on here and else where on the right mouthpiece, reed, ligature, embouchure, instrument. I don't think any one of us has all of the answers, maybe just the answers that work for us at that given time.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-21 23:51
I also read the instructions with my ATG kit saying to proceed with adjustments on brand new reeds, not to wait until broken in. And I understand why some might choose to go the other way. I'm still not completely settled how to handle all of this, but I'm getting better at it.
Seems to me most of my Vandoren blues are pretty well balanced out of the box. But for me, many need immediate reduction of stiffness, and I'd kill myself trying to break these in for days without some adjustment. (I've found it better to play #3's and adjust most down than to start with #2.5's, and #2 were a complete bust.) But I try not to adjust much until a few days into breakin.
And I have also found reeds changing bad to good to bad to good over the first 3-4 days of play. I wonder how many ultimately wonderful reeds have been tossed prematurely because of a bad 1st or 2nd impression. Art imitates life.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-22 17:54
On the topic of the ATG:
One of the techniques (hope I don't spoil too much) where the tip is adjusted to remove any unevenness, shouldn't work if the mouthpiece requires one side to be stiffer than the other, right?
I may have used this technique for nothing on some reeds in the past, without realizing that I only made the reed worse for my mouthpiece.
Regards
Peter
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-22 18:24
One very helpful thing in the ATG instructions is how to test the 2 sides of the reed for equal resistance. If you find the 2 sides unequal, you can (A) shift the position of the reed left and right, and/or (B) try to adjust the reed itself. Early on I did a lot more (B), now if (A) makes it play right I leave it alone. That's worked better for me, ask me again in a year and I might give you a different opinion, LOL.
So... if a mouthpiece has a genuine asymmetry, perhaps that just means the ideal reed position is also asymmetric. I like this idea because you should be able to perfectly balance a reed and then play it properly on any mouthpiece- so long as you position it as it demands, and don't insist it be exactly centered. Whatever works.
Shifting reed position up or down to compensate for reed stiffness too low or too high is not as helpful to me- but I also try to remember to try that before hitting the trimmer or sandpaper. Measure twice, cut once.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-22 18:59)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-04-22 19:16
Perhaps the idea should not be making a reed perfectly balanced, but making a reed perfectly balanced *for your mouthpiece*. It is like tailoring a suit. It can be made perfectly, but no person is perfect with complete symmetry on both sides of his/her body. A good tailor would not worry that one sleeve is an inch longer as long as it fits the client.
Many mouthpieces have slight differences in the rails or imperfections in the facing or develop them with wear. Players adjust the reeds or adapt to the mouthpiece. There are many great players who played on mouthpieces with slight anomalies. Some actually believed that those qualities gave their mouthpiece a special character.
The great mouthpiece craftsman Everett Matson told me of his experience working on a mouthpiece for one of our legendary players. He said that the mouthpiece had some really odd inequalities in the facing from side to side. He straightened it out, putting it to equal specs. The player did not like it as much and he returned it to its original crooked facing which the player liked.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-22 19:26
I generally play test my reeds a couple of times and immediately make a note on playing characteristics and especially how the balance seems to be ... Don't adjust imbalance until 2nd or 3rd trial. And, I check them and might adjust each time I play them.
Lately, I've been polishing the flat side on plain Xerographic paper before testing them.
Use tap water for the initial short soak, and don't wet anything but the "vibrating part", that is, only about 0.75 inches of the vamp. Wetting or soaking the entire reed is good for rapid return of moisture to reed ... but there is more chance of warp ... best to let them re-hydrate (or de-hydrate) naturally over several days in your practice room. Don't keep reeds in your clarinet case, except briefly and in a ziplock bag ... the air is damper inside your case. I leave reeds at room temperature/humidity ... they gotta play in our atmosphere, not in a reed case!
Dry reeds curved side down for a little while and then flat side down on glass for storage.
I get mad at my Legere reeds about twice a week and revert back to cane for a while ... like trying Kellogg's Corn Flakes again, for the first time ... so good!
Tom
Post Edited (2015-04-22 19:29)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-24 16:48
Like you Peter (the OP), I too play on an M15 that I believe bears the same assymetries you describe. I otherwise, like you, enjoy the mouthpiece.
I imagine if I had to use my adjusted (to this mouthpiece) reeds with different mouthpieces, that this assymetry might create a problem. Otherwise it doesn't for me.
Using ATG and ATG-like techniques (e.g. I tend to use a Vandoren Reed Resurfacer or Reedgeek rather than the ATG sanding block for the latter two's (small) portability and reusability) I shave down the right side of reeds (more than left) for this mouthpiece.
Perhaps what I may be able to add to the conversation is some opinions on ATG's use over the life of reeds, and reiterate Stan's idea of reed positioning on the mouthpiece.
As wonderful as I believe ATG to be, I believe its use is subject to diminishing returns over the life of a reed. This is by no means a criticism of this excellent tool, which always makes my top 5 list of clarinet accessory values, but simple a product of the fact that (at the risk of pointing out the obvious) unlike working with clay, where we can always, pre-kiln, reapply material if we've found ourselves removing too much, our wood adjustment techniques mostly allow us only a single direction of material removal, with no turning back, of adjustment to the relatively stronger side of the reed. This then often gives us a weaker reed over time, which we clip, and readjust to ultimately produce the same weakness issue, etc. All this happens with the diminisihing marginal returns of each reed clip, as we find ourselves with a reed that is unbalanced with respect to its tip and heel (as opposed to its left and right.)
A far better approach after a couple of rounds of ATG, I think, and one that does not marry an otherwise ever changing reed to a partciular mouthpiece, is to incorporate, like Stan said, microns of adjustment to the reed's position on the mouthpiece: up and down for weak and strong reeds respectively, and to the left for reeds with stronger right sides, and vice versa.
By no means do I suggest continued use of a mouthpiece so out of alignment that it negatively affects your play or technique. But even a symmetrical mouthpiece contends with ever changing assymmetrical reeds (synthetics and their pros and cons notwithstanding).
Let me leave you with this satirical analogy. If we clarinetists were assigned the task of making the first playground see saw, we might instinctively, from our life experiences, design a dynamic fulcrum point, whose position changes randomly, without warning or predictability, where those using the device were expected to shift their weight closer or further from their end of the board to adjust for such fulcrum point changes. The notion of a stable fulcrum point would have us point out, in disgust "what skill's involved with that!" while the rest of the world would, with common sense, point out to us that in the lack of need for skill, lies....(3 letter clarinet curse word).....fun.
Stupid lay people, how could we possibly be impressed with the likes of Julian Bliss if clarinet was easy and fun (despite the immense enjoyment we take in it despite either attribute)!!!!! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-25 04:41
I think it is fair to say that everyone has an asymmetrical mouth and face. The left side is not an exact reflection of the right side. We call this being human. So if our mouth is asymmetrical, what the heck difference does it make if a mouthpiece is or is not asymmetrical? Find something that works for you, play it, and enjoy life.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-25 05:48
Wisco99, I was thinking the same thing. And I bet none of us play the clarinet symmetrically either (perfectly centered in the mouth, instrument pinned to the center plane of our bodies). Imagine having a rig that enforced that- it would be a horrible restriction. Medieval torture device for music students.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-25 09:47
Let me relate this to my favorite saxophone mouthpiece. I bought it in 1976, and the owner of the Saxophone Shop, Robert Black suggested I try it. It was just what I was looking for, killer mouthpiece. Then I looked at it and on the inside rail it looked like someone dropped a sharp tool on it and it left a slash on the side. I demanded a perfect mouthpiece, and there was one left. No imperfections but it sucked big time. I bought the imperfect one and played it for the rest of my career. The lesson I learned that day was sometimes imperfection is a good thing. It comes down to what sounds good and works for you. Looks really mean nothing, and neither does perfection in a mouthpiece. Sometimes ugly is beautiful.
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