 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-18 10:08
For the past six months or so my daughter has been looking for an R-13 to play in rehearsal and performance settings in order to "match" the group sound of her section. She has tried several but hasn't found one yet that she likes. She is playing a Selmer Recital presently and has a Leblanc Concerto as a backup. This week she looked at a late 60's Evette Schaffer K-series that plays amazing! The sound, response, balance between left and right hands, and condition of the keys and instrument body are all very good. The seller is also the original owner. As is typical of older Buffets, the low register is a bit flat and the upper register is a tad sharp. She played the horn again today with a borrowed Moennig barrel that improved the intonation even more. Four months ago she borrowed an R-13 Prestige to audition on that does not play as well as this Evette. The down side is that the seller is firm on $1500 for this horn. I believe that for the way this horn sounds and plays that the price is fair, but to be worth $1500 I would think that it would have to at least be an R-13. Does anyone have any input on what the top reasonable price for a K-series should be? I don't want to purchase it only to sell it down the road for a fraction of the price paid.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-04-18 15:59
I imagine the seller you've mentioned got the estimated value from a music shop in Aledo....LOL.... There are tons of Evette-Schaeffer clarinets in the Fort Worth area. From the late 60s thru the early 80s that was the preferred clarinet among the school districts in and around Ft Worth for their beginners, and they were rented by the hundreds. You can find one in the $200-300 range if you look. Many of these clarinets were used a year or two and stored away in the closet. I come across them fairly often.
There's one in the DFW area Craigslist posted mid March that is probably still available. It might be worth contacting them to see if they still have it.
This person seems to always have an ad for Buffet clarinets in E Ft Worth. Check them out to see what they have available.... http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/4963793602.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-18 18:30
My Evette and Schaefer k series plays better than any r13 I've ever played. But strict street market value, 1500 is way too much. Of course you could also think differently and think, "would I pay 1500 for a clarinet that outplays $2500-$3000 r13s"?
It's up to you, but Evette and schaeffeurs are not very rare and personally, I wouldn't pay that much.
Go on the dreaded auction sites, search "completed listings" for Evette and schaeffeurs and use those prices to negotiate.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-04-18 18:36
$1500 is way too high to me. I'd wait for a nice fixer-upper K-series Master Model for a few hundred bucks, and then get it carefully overhauled to your daughter's exact specifications. A problem-free E&S Master Model K-series was on my local Craiglist for $300--I called and it had been listed for several weeks, unsold--I am sure it could have been bought for less than $300. I really should have picked it up for a future student.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-18 21:45
I feel the same way about the price here and usually stick to the $150 or cheaper pro Leblanc's to fix up. Unfortunately they have a different sound than what her director wants. This is the horn from CL posted mid March. It is from the New York area and she did get the quote ($1500-2000) from a dealer. She did not reply when I asked her what the dealers offer was. I so appreciate the feedback and I would consider paying $750 for this horn even if I could only sell it for $275 down the road due to the fact that it is a real player and she hasn't found it's equal in over 25 R13s she has tried.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2015-04-18 23:57
An Evette Master Model I had was generally flat and dull in the bottom register, making it necessary to undercut all the tone holes to raise the bottom end. After all the work, it was quite a good instrument with satisfactory tuning over the instrument. Originally, the toneholes had not been undercut.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-04-19 03:38
Since the director is insisting on a particular sonic presentation, paying a bit above market value for a superlative E&S K-series is almost certainly your most cost-effective solution.
If your daughter is truly smitten with this particular instrument, why worry about the resale value, anyway? There's a good chance this would be used for the rest of her playing career--either as her prized performance instrument or as a beloved, treasured backup.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-19 08:25
Ursa wrote:
> Since the director is insisting on a particular sonic
> presentation, paying a bit above market value for a superlative
> E&S K-series is almost certainly your most cost-effective
> solution.
>
> If your daughter is truly smitten with this particular
> instrument, why worry about the resale value, anyway? There's
> a good chance this would be used for the rest of her playing
> career--either as her prized performance instrument or as a
> beloved, treasured backup.
>
I agree here. As far as a Buffet horn, this is the best one she has found but she still prefers playing the Selmer Recital over any Buffet. The E&S would most likely only be played to satisfy her director. Maybe over time she would change her preference.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-19 21:42
Jamnik wrote:
> I agree here. As far as a Buffet horn, this is the best one she
> has found but she still prefers playing the Selmer Recital over
> any Buffet. The E&S would most likely only be played to satisfy
> her director. Maybe over time she would change her preference.
>
So she prefers her recital and you're considering s clarinet purchase to appease her director? Forget it. Don't buy it. Stick with what makes her happy and gets the job done. If this were for a paying job, then consider it. But she can continue to learn technique and skill on her recital just as much as any other clarinet and if it's a sound that makes her enjoy playing, all the better.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-20 07:43
sfalexi wrote:
>
> So she prefers her recital and you're considering s clarinet
> purchase to appease her director? Forget it. Don't buy it.
> Stick with what makes her happy and gets the job done. If this
> were for a paying job, then consider it. But she can continue
> to learn technique and skill on her recital just as much as any
> other clarinet and if it's a sound that makes her enjoy
> playing, all the better.
>
> Alexi
>
Looking at both sides objectively, I agree that horns should be similar in sound when played as a section. I also agree that you should play the horn that you like best. Tuning is the main reason for the request even though the Recital plays very close to in tune with a tuner but not with the section. For Pines of Rome in her wind ensemble she is playing an E&S 'A' clarinet for part of the piece that she preferred over the other R13's also in 'A'. All of which are school owned. A risk of not getting a R13 or similar could possibly be being moved to the second band. I had a similar issue playing trumpet in high school until the director borrowed a Model 37 to let me play during rehearsal and performances.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-20 08:17
Maybe I'm officially too far removed from high school, but is this type of political maneuvering and using threats of moving bands because you're not using the HIGH SCHOOL band directors prefferred clarinet.....is this acceptable now? I haven't been in high school, but I don't remember this manipulation.
So what if she wants to do music in college and she gets that Evette and Schaefer but the instructor at the college she goes to wants her to get an r-13? What if shale gets an r-13 right now and gets into a studio that plays mostly yamahas?
I still maintain that if she's happier with the recital, at this point, just play. If she decides to go to college for music, the band she was placed in will have no bearing on how she plays for her live audition or cd.
I don't know. This annoys me. Maybe the band director would change his/her tune if it came out if their pocket.
Alexi
PS - I re-read your original post. I've never found a recent r13 prestige, or many recent r13s that I've liked. Something with the design causes the thumb F and thumb/forefinger E notes to be very flat. It happens almost all the time.
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-20 10:09
This has been a detailed discussion between my daughter and me for almost a year now. I will say for the record that in my opinion Buffets are more hype than what you really get for your money. I will also say that every brand or maker of clarinet has some very poor and some very extraordinary examples of horns from time to time but this is not the norm. Most are about the same to what they advertise. The director isn't making threats (yet) but I have talked with him on several occasions about the horn she plays and what he prefers her to play. My conclusion for the easiest solution was to try and find a Buffet that she enjoys playing. She really likes the Ridenour 576 for marching and understands that it fulfills a specific purpose. Especially in cold and low humidity weather. The Recital has a very penetrating and resonant sound. It is like a bass clarinet sound just in a higher pitch if that makes sense. I am looking at a different E&S K-series tomorrow as a loaner for the final month of school.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-20 18:40
Ok. I understand my answers were a little heated, but I can't really stand politics, especially at such a young age, especially when it costs valuable money, when, in reality, it matters so little in life.
I guess I don't know the director's side, and I'll assume he's been just matter of fact stating that the sound doesn't blend and it'd be better for the section, and not pressing or making threats as you just said.
Sorry. People in power using unnecessary influence really gets to me. I related it to more than it probably was.
SUGGESTION - For a good balance of price, purpose, and playability, you may want to (as others have suggested) look up an old evette or evette master model. A used E13 or even E11 would do well. These horns are great and with a little professional work (send them to a good technician to have the holes undercut and tuned a little better), will give him the buffet name, and by extension, sound he wants, for probably no more than $600 including the work, and will hold a decent resale value for the future.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-04-20 19:24
Jamnik's last post above seems to indicate his daughter, needing a Buffet, is using a Ridenour 576 for marching.
These, in my experience, blend very well with "the Buffet sound". Why not use the Ridenour for concert band?
Post Edited (2015-04-20 20:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-21 04:23
Ursa wrote:
> Jamnik's last post above seems to indicate his daughter,
> needing a Buffet, is using a Ridenour 576 for marching.
>
> These, in my experience, blend very well with "the Buffet
> sound". Why not use the Ridenour for concert band?
>
>
> Post Edited (2015-04-20 20:29)
She did use the 576 for a few weeks after marching season. The director was not impressed with the sound or tone of it either. In all honesty my daughter does need to improve her sound no matter what horn she plays. I've heard Tom R. play the 576's in person and his sound is different than hers. My belief is that when things aren't going well in the section the horn is an easy target to place blame. I agree about the politics and think that it shouldn't really be a factor until college or later.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-04-21 05:54
My 576BC requires well-developed, well-controlled air support to obtain optimum results, and it's more critical with this instrument than with many other clarinets. Maybe there's an issue with her technique, or a mouthpiece and/or reed mismatch going on here. Based on what I've read so far, however, it is easy to speculate that the conductor probably mandates specific mouthpieces and reeds, so I won't go down that road.
That said, you've already provided your daughter with not one, but TWO professional-level instruments and neither one has been deemed acceptable in...a high school setting! There;s something fishy going on here.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-04-21 08:02
One of the better High School wind symphonies in Texas, last years state honor band, uses all Lyrique clarinets in it's clarinet section, and I believe they also use Lyrique harmony clairnets as well. There are couple of Youtube videos of this band. Here is one.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGsYRFe75xY
Post Edited (2015-04-21 08:36)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-21 08:26
GLHopkins wrote:
> One of the better High School wind symphony in Texas, last
> years state honor band, uses all Lyrique clarinets in it's
> clarinet section, and I believe they also use Lyrique harmony
> clairnets as well. There are couple of Youtube videos of this
> band. Here is one..
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGsYRFe75xY
I know that a few bands in Flower Mound and Southlake use them.
She uses a Richard Hawkins MP with V12 3.5 reeds or Rue 56 3.5+ reeds. The school rents them out to most of the players since most kids can't get their parents to foot the bill for a $250 mouthpiece. It may not be a great setup for the 576 though. Sometimes she will use a Fobes SF or a Theo Wanne GAIA. She hasn't played much with the C85 120 that came with the Recital but she says it's a good mouthpiece. On the way home today I talked to her about the fundamentals of good playing--long tones to develop good sound. This is paramount for brass players to strengthen embouchure and to find the center of each note. I think she is starting to realize that practicing is more than just technically playing each piece without mistakes and with the dynamics written.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-04-21 09:25
Considering the amount of investment you have made in her equipment, I have been assuming, throughout this thread, that she has a good private teacher. Is this the case?
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-21 11:23
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> Considering the amount of investment you have made in her
> equipment, I have been assuming, throughout this thread, that
> she has a good private teacher. Is this the case?
>
> Best regards,
> jnk
She does, but only goes when she is preparing audition music. She has expressed that she doesn't think the lessons are a good value for the money. I tell her that the price is a bargain even if you only gain one useful tip per lesson. Master classes are the same. A lot can be learned in a day of working in small groups with outstanding clinicians but she says she is uncomfortable playing in front of people she doesn't know. I don't want to force her to do anything she doesn't want to do, but maybe she needs to hear the importance of year round lessons from someone besides me or her director. Tom Ridenour has made the biggest impression on her even though she has only been to his shop once. His suggestions and examples make sense to her and she has watched many if not all if his YouTube videos.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MSK
Date: 2015-04-22 05:13
I don't live in Texas, and can't begin to understand the local culture of requiring an entire section to have professional quality clarinets much less of a particular brand. In my own high school days, Half the section didn't even have wooden clarinets. Many of the wooden ones were Evette, Normandy etc - definitely not the quality your daughter already owns. Only the top students had professional quality instruments of any of the major brand -- and that was a mixture. We sounded good and won many competitions. Attending our admittedly small state's All- State concerts last month, I can say that most of the Junior Band and some the Senior Band all State clarinets were still playing their beginner plastic instruments with upgraded mouthpieces. I doubt that any who get into All State do so without private lessons though.
Even though I had already been tutoring my son at home, I saw a world of improvement in his sound after he began taking private lessons. The teacher could work on embouchure and dynamics in a way that the band director can't possibly address in the larger group. Furthermore, chances are that the band director isn't even a clarinet specialist. My son is on his fourth band director and none are primary clarinet players. A private teacher might also have insight into navigating local music politics, helping your daughter blend her sound with an instrument she already owns, or choosing an alternate if it is really required.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-22 05:53
Texas takes their bands seriously. Like, SERIOUSLY.
You sound like you have some good ideas, Jamnik. You might want to have (if possible) her have her instrument tried by another clarinetist. Find out how much of that different sound is her rather than the the clarinet. I've no doubt slender recitals sound different. That's how they were designed. But like above folks have said, a ridenour should be able to blend very well. I played my ridenour for a few years with zero problems blending.
There's not too many options, but suffice to say, if you DO find a good buffet, resale shouldn't be hard in the Texas band eco system if she doesn't stick with it. You can also try a few different barrels on her ridenour. Barrels can change the sound.
The Hawkins should work fine on the ridenour. I used a Hawkins B while I was using my ridenour. Also, the c85 mouthpiece was designed for the recital and if I remember correctly, better matches the bore of the recital.
I'm more inclined after all this back and forth discussion to say that it's a tone concept, breath support issue than equipment. Of course that's without hearing or knowing anything firsthand. Fort Worth/Dallas has gotta have some very competent clarinet teachers to check it out with.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-04-22 17:04
Reading through the thread, it jumps out at me that anyone would seriously considering purchasing an instrument, any instrument, simply to make a high school band director happy but a private teacher is regarded as not good value for the money, and is consulted only when preparing for competitions. Even worse if the daughter is making that determination. Exactly when does one prepare for competitions? Correct answer: every single damned day. In the development of skill, expert feedback is critical. If you ask any professional clarinetist, in person, not in a manufacturer's youtube promo, to what he/she ascribes his/her success and skill, the answer will be a NAME, not a model of clarinet. FWIW, the principal clarinetist in my orchestra has played the same Selmer Recital B flat as long as I've known him -- almost 20 years. It's an unusually good instrument with unusually good and even resistance, and I would love to see a band director find fault with his sound.
It's a little difficult to tell what aspirations are at stake, but speaking purely as a musician and with apologies for being blunt, it sounds like the tail is wagging the dog. It may be that a different teacher is in order, and I realize, as the father of three daughters, that it's easier to write a script than it is to make it stick, but my recommendation is that WHEN the daughter is serious enough to take regular lessons and follow the advice of an expert musician, and follow that teacher's advice in working on all aspects of musicianship rather than simply playing band as a sport, and IF the private teacher is of the opinion that the instrument is impeding progress, THEN it will be worth exploring an equipment change. AT WHICH POINT, the teacher should be involved in the selection process.
Of course, if the point is to simply play band as a sport, then carry on. You're in exactly the same position as a softball dad with DD on a travel team whose coach wants everybody to swing DeMarini CF7s. If the daughter is a bona fide home run hitter she can use what she wants, and if coach doesn't like her bat there are five other teams that will. When she's playing on scholarship at Arizona or Oklahoma or UCLA she may have to use the sponsored (free) bat. But if she's fighting for 8th or 9th in the order right now, you don't want to give the coach any excuses.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-04-24 20:25
JHowell,
I showed this thread including your response to my daughter. It is very in line with what I believe. She does need an outside source to put things into perspective. I wish that the director would portray lessons more important than brand or model of instrument to my daughter. I really don't mind buying different horns for my daughter as long as they are instruments that she enjoys playing. FWIW, I buy fixer uppers or instruments that kids in college sell for quick cash at low prices. I compare it to handguns. There are many different ones and all have value and use along with different features that some like while some don't. Handgun owners usually have a variety of different guns even though they all do the same basic thing. The important thing is that the model of clarinet doesn't make a player great just like a handgun doesn't make a shooter a better shot.
She is on the bubble of pursuing music either as a teacher or performance. It may turn into just a sport for her though. It is a worthwhile hobby by all means if she doesn't pursue either. It beats playing video games day and night like a lot of today's youth.
Jamnik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-04-27 16:48
Jamnik, it seems that you're thinking reasonably, but I think it can be bad for a developing player to have too many choices, and thus learn to depend on equipment to make a change rather than relying on herself. I'd lean more toward the "beware the man with one gun" analogy. I've had students whose parents were very keen on getting instruments used or picking them up on eBay and having them fixed up. Almost all would have been better served, in my opinion, if they had let me pick an instrument in Jacksonville (for which I do NOT charge) and settled down with it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2015-05-01 22:31
I must say, although a bit off topic, that this performance of the Marcus, Texas high school band is absolutely beautiful. It is a pleasure to hear the clarity of musical lines and the beautiful sounds being produced by these students. This is a great example of an outstanding instrumental music program, and the professional level of teaching that has been received by these students.
Post Edited (2015-05-02 17:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
