 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-22 10:10
Hello,
I've been working on the Beethoven Op. 11 Trio in my youth orchestra's chamber music program. We decided to record our rehearsal today to give ourselves a better idea of how we sound as an ensemble. I would really appreciate it if anyone had any advice to give us, clarinet-related or otherwise. (There are a couple of momentary tempo trainwrecks and wrong notes throughout the piece; we're going to drill those at our next rehearsal. Also never mind my silly friend at the very end of the video - she was our videographer.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHRiRBfPQtU
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-22 16:48
My big concern is that none of you are looking at each of the others.
I'd switch you and the cello out and have the cello angled so that she can see the piano and the pianist can watch her bow (for speed and entrances). Where you sit, you should also be looking at the cello (same reason) and both of them should look at you for pauses and entrances (head nods, breathing).
That should clear up a LOT of problems. What you do just listening to each other is pretty impressive so you guys should be golden once you start WATCHING.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-23 01:11
Thanks for the advice! I was also noticing the lack of us watching each other, and I'm sure if we had been, we could've avoided some of those tempo mishaps. I hadn't even considered changing the seating arrangement; we'll give it a go at our next rehearsal.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-03-23 04:45
You drown out everyone else, maybe because the mic was too close to you. However, the cellist also needs to play out more. Also, you and she are significantly out of tune with each other, her low and you high.
I'm not bothered by the way you're sitting. You're all listening well and playing together.
Your technique is smooth, but I'd like to hear a less militant sound. As Kal Opperman used to say, I want to hear the "OOOH" in the tone -- cushion and sweetness as well as strength.
Early Beethoven is as much about fun as it is about aggressiveness. It has to smile and dance. You might want to look at my posting about the finale at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=75975&t=75842.
Let us know how the performance goes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-23 06:14
The loudness is partially because the mic is closer to me and partially because I do tend to play louder. Our chamber music instructors have been trying to get the pianist and the cellist to balance to my volume, but I'll try to meet them in the middle as well. I didn't realize quite how loud I was until I listened back to our recording. Tuning is definitely an issue, we'll work on it.
I don't mean to make excuses about the tone, but we recorded this after about 4-5 hours of orchestra and chamber rehearsal, so my tone was becoming a little strident from tired chops and from the softer reed I switched to. I will definitely keep the "ooh" advice in mind though, and I agree that I should have played some of the sections less forcefully.
Your post about the 3rd movement was very helpful as well. I remember hearing that the 3rd movement was Beethoven's response to a friend's dare to use that tune in a theme and variations, have you heard this?
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-03-23 06:39
As Charles Rosen, William Caplin, and others have pointed out, Beethoven's music was always classical; a lot of its charm, therefore, comes from the ways in which Beethoven plays with the norms of Viennese classicism (unexpected accents, subito pianos, unusual key centers, etc.). But even at its most bombastic (the finale from the Hammerklavier, for example) there are always moments of elegance (the second fugue subject, in this case).
To me, your performance sounded as though it were mostly bombast--the most obvious example being the long notes that you played sostenuto, covering up the more interesting lines in the cello and piano. Another issue was the staccato notes that were all emphasized as if they were downbeats, creating a plodding feeling.
Rather than going through the performance point-by-point, you should just check out Tony Pay's wonderful essay on classical era phrasing (I think it's called "Phrasing in Contention").
Post Edited (2015-03-23 07:53)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-23 07:30
@tylerleecutts: Thanks! Eye contact is definitely something we're going to look at (punintended) at our next rehearsal.
I play a Clark Fobes CWF mouthpiece, Peter Leuthner French Cut Professional #4 reeds, and a VD Optimum with vertical rails. My Bb clarinet is a Pre-R13 (c. 1946) handed down to me by the mother of a family friend, who happened to study with Mitchell Lurie. Just got it restored about a month ago and it actually plays very nicely, despite the negative reputations of older instruments.
You're right that the piano isn't totally in tune, especially on the higher notes, but it's not so out of tune that we can't use it as a reference.
Post Edited (2015-03-23 07:31)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-23 07:43
@brycon: Thanks for the advice, and for the pointer to Tony Pay's essay. (I found it here: http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Phrasing.html) You and Ken Shaw both commented on the over-heaviness of my playing, so that's definitely something I'll work on correcting. This is one of the first Beethoven pieces I've played, so I'm still getting a sense of how it should be performed, stylistically speaking.
Post Edited (2015-03-23 07:49)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-14 07:45
And here's the audition recording that's being sent in to a chamber music competition, plus video. I'm still not happy with some of the intonation, but overall, the piece is going better than it was before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn0Cw1pa_oI
Post Edited (2015-04-14 07:47)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-14 22:13
The sound is attenuated strangely. It makes it hard to hear details with the sound so muffled (I liked the SOUND of the original recording much better).
Tuning is a constant work in progress particularly for clarinet playing with piano. You cannot just tune to concert "A" and call it a day. You need to be cognizant of where you are flat or sharp to the notes around you and adjust (even if the piano is wrong, you are only in tune if all of you play the same relative frequency, even is THAT is technically wrong).
I still thought the pianist was disadvantaged not being able to see the cellist's bowing. And even though you were at the pianist side, you were angled such that you were not even able to have his movements in the corner of your eye. Fortunately, constant run throughs make it more obvious what each of you tend to do. Unfortunately because we are not robots, each of you need to respond to what the other it doing IN THE MOMENT, and no amount of rehearsals will fix that.
Quite good end result though.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-16 04:09
Interestingly enough, the original recording was done on an iPhone and the most recent recording was done by a someone from a professional studio who set up the mics in my living room. I do agree that the sound is a little more muffled though - maybe too much of the room sound and not enough of the up-close sound ended up in the mix.
Intonation is definitely something I'm tackling more and more these days. I used to be perpetually sharp due to a biting problem, which I've more or less fixed, but I still find myself edging towards the sharp side if anything.
We'll mess with the seating arrangement at our next rehearsal. We didn't want to change it right before our recording since we were used to it as-is, but now we've got a while before our performance so we can afford to try some different arrangements.
Thanks for the advice!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-16 06:23
The second take was better than the first. I like your playing, but I still want to hear more joy, and lighter overall. Remember that the trio was written for a lightly strung fortepiano, a 5-key clarinet and a gut-strung cello with no end pin. Play with a raised eyebrow and a wink. Have more FUN.
I want more attention to the phrase shapes. For example, the harmonic movement in the very first phrase ends on the chalumeau E4, and you need to come way to the clarion C5, not sting it. Practice it by going down from E4 to C4, accenting the E and coming away to the C.
The movement is about tossing phrases back and forth. It's not just repetition -- it's about one player saying something and the other reacting to it, as in jazz. Play softer and more covered, or push harder, or play sweeter, or more aggressively, or anything. It's a conversation.
Your high clarion, particularly C6, is consistently sharp. The chalumeau fingerings are also a little sharp, so you need to pull out or use a longer barrel.
Get another recording engineer, who at least takes and listens to a quick test. The piano sounds very bad.
You're a fine player, with accurate technique and a good sound. The next step is to make *many* good sounds. Please read the article by Robert Bloom that changed my outlook forever http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=94788&t=94788.
Ken Shaw
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-16 07:15
The instrument is an old "pre-R13" that I inherited from a family friend, and while it's a nice instrument overall, it does have tuning issues (B5/C6, as well as low A, Bb, and B in particular, tend to go sharp and I have to really focus on bringing the pitch down.) I tried my teacher's R13 Prestige Bb recently, and I own her old R13 Prestige A, and I can play in tune much more easily on those instruments. Unfortunately I can't afford a nicer Bb at the moment, so I'm going to bring the pre-R13 to my repair tech and see if he can modify the tone holes to bring those notes closer to pitch. Certainly, though, I'll need to put in more work on my end to bring those registers in tune, and a longer barrel might be necessary.
Emphasizing contrasts in dynamics and style as well as bringing out phrasing shapes are things I've only begun to focus on fairly recently, so I appreciate all the helpful advice. Listening back to the recording, I can definitely use more exaggeration (i.e. while playing, I felt that I was indeed emphasizing the E and backing off on the C as you suggested, yet listening to the recording it's barely noticeable.) I really enjoyed the Robert Bloom article and I'll experiment with varying my tone color during upcoming rehearsals.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-05-18 11:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzMcYIDwFE
Here is our final performance of the 1st movement, for the recital of the chamber music program we were a part of. I thought it turned out quite good, with the exception of the tempo, which got just a little too out of hand for comfort at a couple of spots.
For future reference, what should one do if they're in a small group and tempo is rushing? I wanted to visually cue the tempo or intentionally drag so that the tempo would get back on track, but I felt like it would be even more noticeable and distracting, so I just went with it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-18 15:39
You WOULD visually cue that. If it's not obvious to the rest of the ensemble then you kinda get whatever comes out.
...........Paul Aviles
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