 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-26 16:24
When I was in the school band (jr. high through high 1974-1980) we never learned any music theory whatsoever. We learned how to read the notes on the paper and play them but we were never taught anything more than that (intervals, chords, transposition etc.) I knew what a scale was but I didn't understand anything about them. I didn't learn this stuff until I started taking piano along side my daughter. As soon as I started learning this music theory, I immediately saw the application in playing the clarinet. Things became clear as far as why we played what we did (1st, 2nd, 3rd clarinets being able to play a triad chord together, why the different instruments are in different keys and how to transpose parts etc).
Why do they not teach any of this in band class? (Or do they? Maybe I was just in a bad class??) I enjoy the music more now that I understand it. It was sort of like being able to read a book but having no comprehension.
I was just wondering if my experience was unique. I am just starting to play the clarinet again after an 11 year break. During that 11 years is when I learned the theory. I bought C. Baermann's method books as a way to get back into my skills. I am amazed that theory is presented. My old "band" method books did not include any of this information.
shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-26 16:36
I never learned theory in band either --- I suspect that theory is typically taught outside of band. I had a half-year of a separate music theory class taught by our high school choir director, but that's all the theory I've ever had (in school or otherwise). I still don't know chords from Shinola. It might be be too much to expect band directors to add theory instruction to all their other duties ---- I'm currently playing in a couple of wind ensembles which are heavily populated by band directors, and from what I've seen, these are some busy people!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jan
Date: 2001-04-26 17:01
yes! i had the same problem...i never understood beyond the actual notes on the paper. i played in school band from early 70's thru 85. when i went to college and wanted to take music courses i discovered i was among few who did not get theory lessons in h.s. i soon fell very behind and my love for music ended with frustration over theory. i started playing again a few yrs ago and just now have become interested and even excited about learning theory. last weekend i got a great book at barnes and noble called norton programmed texts in music theory...scales, intervals, keys, triads, rhythm, and meter. i just started it and already im beginning to have a better understanding of the music beyond just the notes on a piece of paper. i reccommend this book for anyone who is going to take music in college and didnt get to have theory in high school.
jan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2001-04-26 17:22
Shelly, this is a great question about a problem that needs all of our involvement to help correct. Well organized, "quality" school instrumental music programs should include instruction in theory, composition and music history. The days of "just learning to play the music for the next concert" band rehearsals are out of touch with current, comprehensive instructional practice. If your childs school band, strings or choral programs do not offer private or small group lessons, small ensemble opportunities as well as large, theory work sheets with instruction and some musical history enrichments, you should complain to your schools learning coordinators, principals, district supervisors, superintendents, and school board members. It may not be the instructors fault, but that of the school district for not developing an adequate, comphrehensive music curriculum or for not providing the necessary time in the schools schedule for such instruction to take place. It is a fact that schools, today, opperate under tremendously complex local, state and federal mandates and financial retraints, and it is difficult to regulate class schedules and resources effectively to make things run smoothly. It may not be possible to offer the perfect curriculum that would provide for every students needs, but we should try to come as close to that goal as possible. So, again, if things are not what they should be at your school, get actively involved in the problem solving proccess. The publics "influence" is often what the educator needs to bring about change in the school. By the way, good clarineting.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-26 17:42
I taught my kids music theory before they ever took any formal music lessons. (I homeschool all my kids so I can do this sort of thing). I found some great music theory workbooks and we practiced timing on pots and pans and we then started playing notes on a recorder. We also did extensive listening to classical music and we studied the lives of the composers, different styles of music, and the different periods of music. By the time Katie started taking formal piano lessons she was well-grounded. Her piano teacher says that Katie is the best sightreader that she has ever had and that she is progessing much faster than the average student.
I learned the theory along with them since I never had any instruction in it at all. I have to give credit to a piano teacher friend who advised me to start working on music skills with my kids basically at birth and it would make learning to play an instrument much easier. Doing this opened my eyes to how absolutely fascinating music theory is!
I get a little sad when I look back to the 6 years I spent playing clarinet in the school band and how much I missed out on by not being taught music theory. I learned my lesson though and I got my kids off on the right foot
shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2001-04-26 18:07
Wow! I now feel very fortunate and am beginning to understand why our high school groups (in the 60's) always did so well at competitions.
We got music theory from the get go and were expected to understand both what was going on in other parts and why. In addition, we had term papers to do on various aspects of our own instruments. Of course, this was with an instructor who had a recording studio in his back yard, spent his lunches jamming with students from the jazz band and played club gigs nearly every evening.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Blake
Date: 2001-04-26 19:09
Hardly any theory in my jr high or high school band. In college, had to take music theory class in order to get credit for concert and marching band. I also had theory in band camp for at least an hour a day. I also learned alot from my private teacher and as you mentioned, the C Baermann methods had lots of it in there. Its probably the way i learned grammar.. from my spanish teachers although i never did understand what the past perfect subjunctive was in english <G> something like.. "i would that i might have learned theory in band" As a choir directo, i've offered "music reading" classes before rehearsal to help those really learn some basic music theory and be more confident in asking questions and understanding direcitons and improving their sight singing abilities.
Blake
Arlington, VA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Danielle
Date: 2001-04-26 19:10
sigh. i don't learn music theory, beyond some pretty basic stuff. i really want to, though, especially since my audition for the manhattan school of music prep involves some theory testing, although it's just to see which class they'd place me in...but i don't want to be with kids who aren't around my age, ugh!!!! anyone have any reccomondations on books or programs that i could use to teach myself?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jan
Date: 2001-04-26 19:16
danielle,
see my above post on a great book i just got on basic theory.
jan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2001-04-26 20:00
I never learned anything either but how to play what was on the printed page. As an adult, I play folk music in dance bands. I am fortunate we actually have printed music and don't have to play by ear. While playing by ear is not theory per se, it is the exact opposite of playing what is on the printed page. Though we use music, we do not have parts; people make harmonies up. The rhythm players (guitars, bass, banjos when not soloing) make up a backbeat based upon the chord progressions, and have different rhythms they play depending upon the tune. The "melody" players - the fiddles and winds, are adept at playing thirds, fourths, and fifths. That is, they are all adept except me. I must look at the printed chord over the melody line and figure out which of those three choices will not be in the chord, so I don't play it. By the time I figure it out, the music may have passed.
It is not because these guys have all had music theory and I have not. In fact, most can't even read music as well as I. It is rather because they can "hear" better, because they were not band geeks in school (or were, but got over it).
What's missing from school music instruction is not only academic music theory, but learning to play by ear. This should be taught early on to young kids, before they get too advanced in reading and instrumental technique and then feel they don't have the ability to do it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Francesca
Date: 2001-04-26 21:41
Alack and alas, I've rarely heard anything about music theory in jr. high or high school. It certainly would have been very helpful now that I'm going to be a music major, but I guess I'll have to catch up when I get to college. I do wonder if it's the school's responsibility to teach it during band, though. Granted, my music program is fall apart (3 teachers in 2 years is not good, right?) but my choir director has been very helpful teaching me some basic theory after school. The school's are most concerned with winning competitions, and sometimes learning theory isn't condusive to sounding the best. We musicians know that ultimately the band will be best off with this knowledge, but administrators don't usually see that. Sorry if this is long-winded, but this is a subject I'm dealing with right now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob the Composer
Date: 2001-04-26 21:53
The way its done at my high school is that there's a music class taught early on in Jr. High. It is not exclusively for band or other such students, it is for everyone and is completely seperate. And once we're in High School, I think we're pretty much expected to know theory. There are plenty of ways of finding out even then both in and out of school, but, unfortunately, I am starting to get the impression that not everyone in my band actually cares about music, (though I think most do). Does anyone else have anything to say about this.
Bob
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Erica
Date: 2001-04-26 22:10
Our new band director is teaching us theory and music history. He came from a H.S. that didn't do any theory so when he got to college his 1st year theory class was pretty rough. He's bound and determinded to not have what happened to him, happen to any of us, so since the beginning of the year he's tried to give weekly theory and/or music history lessons. It's really cool, because we can use it against him (all in good fun of course). Like for one of the songs we're playing the Bari sax has a really cool part that's really similar to the clarinet part. So the Bari sax player and I swapped parts, and transposed them for our instruments. It made for a few interesting rehersals. <|:o)
Anyway, we have music theory and it's really cool to understand why things are the way they are. And for the record we're learning to match pitches in singing as well. To be quite honest, we're better than the choir... but that's another story.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Pam
Date: 2001-04-26 22:36
I did take a music theory class in high school back about '77. My school at the time offered it as a separate class from band. It's probably difficult for band directors during the one class period to cover everything. I am now learning some theory again from my private teacher as well as his wife who is teaching me piano. I think you tend to learn more music theory with the piano than a wind instrument. (Just my opinion.) I wish I'd have learned more music history in school. I really enjoy reading about it now. Would I have enjoyed it as much and gotten as much out of it back then? I don't know. Sometimes, I think I appreciate certain things in life more now than I did 20 years ago. I know that all of it is important to learn if you are going to study music in college.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2001-04-26 23:29
Not only did I not learn theory in band, I also sidestepped most of the theory and scales in my private lessons. I hated scales . . . but now that I want to improvise or play harmony I'm at a severe disadvantage. But I'm picking it up now . . . little by little. When I grow up I'm gonna play sax as well as clarinet. I'm only 50; when do I grow up?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-27 01:03
Group performance ensembles, such as band and chorus, are probably not good places to try to teach theory, although some conductors do make a stab at it. The school that I went to in late elementary grades and junior high grades required *everyone* to take general music whether or not they were in any musical activities. It was considered part of the basic educational package (just like basic art class and so on). This class covered basic notation, basic theory (chords, circle of fifths, etc), and some basic music appreciation. The junior high class even required some simple composition. Unfortunately general music is often no longer required. Where it is available, it has simply degenerated into a basic singing class.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LIZZIE
Date: 2001-04-27 01:39
I am 13 and we do that stuff in our band! Exept our band director is totally cool and we know how to:
tune-play chord's-read notes-read music-pitch-and much much more.
He always tells us how he was never taught this kind of stuff when he was in band.
Lizzie
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-04-27 03:10
I was taught about the circle of fifths, chord structure and maybe some basic music theories in high school. It was fascinating, but it depends on how well the teacher knows it him/herself.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim
Date: 2001-04-27 03:32
Ditto the experience, I went to a Catholic HS in the 1960s. The only theory I took was in college. My son has had the same experience, but is taking theory as a separate class next (senior) year. This is the first time in 3 years they have taught it. They cancelled this year because only 5 signed up.
Steve, I'm not sure playing by ear can be taught. I can do it well as can my son. I was doing it even before i ever took theory. I quickly learned on my own that some keys worked easier than others for a given tune, but til I had theory I never linked that to key signatures etc. I always memorize the starting note, and can just go from there. My wife the pianist cant do it at all, she is tied to the printed page. She has no more idea why she can't than I do of why I can.
Fred, I'm also 50. My advice is to never grow up, if you do it won't be long til you grow old. I have a friend who started ballet lessons at 71. Today she's 78 and dancing up a storm.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2001-04-27 04:15
I agree with Dee that it's difficult to teach but so much Theory in the context of an ensemble class.
Having students learn to play scales and triads is a good start, and some teachers even have then transpose simple sings 'by the numbers' (Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7) The newer band books are also better about providing theory info. Standard of Excellence publishes a theory/history workbook for use with its band books.
I teach my private students theory in the Master Theory Workbook volumes 1, 2 and 3. It is an easy to use, comprehensive series that provides plenty of practice for the student. It is also one of few that is referenced to actual notes instead of to the piano keyboard. Unfortunately, it does not have audible examples. For those of you who use it, I have a Master Theory section on my website with a number of audible, visible examples which can be played on a freeware reader. There are also links to Master Theory's publisher
http://allencole.tripod.com/mt_help.htm
At the end of this series, my students can write down a simple, familiar song, pick out the I/IV/V chords, and write a parallel harmony line. Even in private lessons, I have to stop at this point because further study requires the use of--and some skill with--a keyboard instrument or a computer notation program.
Students who are interested in jazz and pop music can continue study in a terrific book from the Musician's Institute called "Harmony & Theory." It's published by Hal Leonard. It can also be used as a beginner book, but I am sticking with Master Theory for the time being.
Alfred now publishes a decent theory workbook that includes examples on CD. I have considered switching to it because of the audio examples, but it doesn't provide as many practice examples as Master Theory. This is why I opted to put Master Theory assistance online at my website.
One thing that I do in private lessons that school bands could easily adopt is to have students transpose standard scale exercises in each key.I use a 13-measure sequence of scale, scale-in-thirds and I/IV/V arpeggios. Students keep a "technique notebook" in which we examine each key's fingering situations. We transpose using the above-described 'number system' and the result is that these technical exercises provide slow but steady ear training as well. An additional benefit of using this 'number system' transposition is that it provides and excellent foundation for playing by ear. (which we also do in order to demonstrate the necessity of learning scales)
I have some worksheets which you might find useful online as .pdf's at:
http://allencole.tripod.com/st_instr.htm
Since I've already gotten longwinded, let me close with a couple of thoughts on this subject.
1 - The real problem with most band programs on this subject is that students are too caught up in the band stuff and are not all that curious about their instruments and their real-world uses.
2 - Those who are curious need starting points. For those interested in learning some practical skills, visit my site at http://www.jamschool.net. It was put together specifically to provide those starting points.
3 - The most important thing in my mind is that students have to do things for themselves. You can't let them talk you into giving it to them.
4 - For teachers, the most important thing to remember is that necessity is the mother of invention. Curricula have to be designed to make these skills NECESSARY in the student's normal playing. Otherwise skills are gained temporarily and lost permanently. This is far easier for private teachers than for band directors.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2001-04-27 04:25
The only theory I got was when I took it in college and a lot of schools down here (in Texas) still don't teach this. Most concentrate on this instrument itself, marching season stuff and UIL competition. However, I did see some of the students from the next town over (Santa Fe) working on some theory assignments during lunch at MacDonalds so my hats off to thier band director. They also have a VERY good band now. I think basic theory should be mandatory as it can give you a better picture of what you're playing and how it all works out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JAZZ
Date: 2001-04-27 05:58
In my highschool... way back in the mid to late seventies... we didn't have a period set aside for "band". Band, in fact was an extracurricular activity. We had music classes, in which we learned our instruments, theory, music history as a diversified group, but band was something separate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-27 11:47
Allen, I just visited your web site. I am seriously impressed! Your students must love you
shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2001-04-27 15:20
Lot of great input and ideas, but as I tried to suggest near the top of this topic, if your local school band, strings and choral classes are not being offered lessons in theory, opportunities for private or sectional lessons, and small ensemble experiances (including jazz) go to your local school officials and GET INVOLVED in helping to bring about change. It is one thing for the band, orchestra or choral director to go to his/her principal and request scheduling time and financial resource to offer the necessary enrichment and musical growth opportunities for to their students, but it is QUITE A DIFFERENT THING for the tax-paying public to walk in and DEMAND the same. It is too easy for a principal or superintendent to say no to a teacher (or group of students), but far more difficult to turn away a determined group of parents with the same concerns. EVERY STUDENT DESERVES A GOOD SCHOOL. Get involved, that's the only way it will happen!!!!!!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JC
Date: 2001-04-27 17:27
JAZZ,
I have a similar situation in my high school. Music class is when we learn theory, composition, about composers, styles, and instruments, etc. Band is after school. I think one problem with teaching theory in band is that some kids (like me) may have started an instrument such as piano when they were 7 or 8 and think of music theory, at least the basics, they know without even thinking about it. I had some music theory in my middle school (where band was a class) and was bored to death. I don't really know if there is a solution to that or not. My music teacher currently splits us into groups according to our level, but the class isn't very big (about 15 people) so she can do that pretty easily.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jenna
Date: 2001-04-27 20:56
I'm a junior in high school now, and I've learned music conmpletely through the public school system. I didn't even realize how much was involved in the concept of music theory until recently when little things started to "click" for me. From 3th grade on, all i learned was how to finger notes, what notes were what, sharps and flats.. basics.. how to read music. I got to middle and high school and slowly started learning more and more, then when I joined a local military band and started playing different instruments, I started to pick up a lot more than I even knew existed.
My band director is a very knowledgable man when it comes to anything, music-related or not. I think if he had the opportunity, he would do more theory. We did a lot of scale concentration in middle school, and when we got to high school we were mainly there for the goal and preparing and performing (you can't very well teach 50 musicians theory and prepare for concerts in a 38 min period). However, we use warmup books, which emphasize tuning, scales, different keys, and even a page or two on the circle of 5ths. You can tell within the ensemble who the knowledgable people are, though. There are a group who are involved in outside organizations, lessons, or just took it upon themselves to learn more. These are the section leaders unsure musicians go to when confused. This "mentoring" helps everyone grow a bit. =) I was transposing a part one day, and people were amazed.. another girl can play a chromatic from all the way down to all the way up, and then back down..and again, people are amazed. A lot of young musicains just don't understand how complex a system music reallyis unless they're exposed to it. There is a beginning keyboarding class that teaches some theory offered, and serious musicians can opt to take what we call "AP" Musicianship once a week. A student will learn A LOT of theory in one of these private lessons.
Oh well, I'm being rather longwinded, but I thought I'd toss a more current idea of theory education in the mix. =)
Have fun.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Rob
Date: 2001-04-28 03:28
When I was in High School, if you were in the band It was required that it be your first, and longest class of the day, approximately 50% longer than any other class. Our band director provided a great deal of instruction in music theory and music history but it was done so subtly that I didn't even realize it was happening. There were no formalized tests or anything, but believe me, he knew if you were "getting it" or not. In addition to that I also took two years of music theory and composition taught by the vocal music director - and this was all offered in a public school. We also had (after school - attendance mandatory) regular instrument clinics delivered by local professional musicians and since it was a NYC suburb, we had this guy named Blayman who would come and do clinics for the clarinet players. I didn't realize until I went to college just how much I had learned in addition to just reading the notes on the page. You can say what you like about public schools and maybe things are different now than they were 25 years ago, but I think my public school education was pretty good.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim
Date: 2001-04-28 04:23
After making my post to this thread yesterday, I decided I had more to say I guess... Surely one can competently play clarinet or any band instrument without knowing much theory at all. The real process in my mind is that of becoming a musician, not just a player. That is what takes study beyond the mechanics of learning an instrument. Theory of course is vital. Also necessary is some study of history and styles whether formal or through reading and listening. One needs to force oneself to listen (both live and from recordings) to a wide variety of music (including that which one dislikes) for the experience of it. (OK I personally draw the line at rap etc..) Also, some piano is quite valuable to one's musical development (wish I had more than I do.) Vocal music will also develop reading and listening skills most useful to an instrumentalist. For those who are involved in a church (or other community of faith) with a choir, this is a great chance to practice musical skills while providing a service. In other words, musicianship requires a number of skills, many far removed from the mechanics of playing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken
Date: 2001-04-28 16:55
Allen's site is indeed excellent for the novice who is interested in pursuing basic theory, the inherrant nature of many instruments, how they relate to specific ensemble settings and even how and why sounds are got. I was very fortunate to come from a great HS band music program (1972-1976) where theory was mandatory for freshmen/sophmores enrolled in band/choir. After graduation, this became critical to my limited success as a freelance doubler especially since I never went to college. It's undisputed theory fundamentals and application are essential to better playing however, the flip side to that is those who don't have it must rely more on their ears, head, heart and musical instincts. The ability to improvise (not memorize) free from the page reaps a whole other dimension on playing and builds a better and more well rounded musician.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2001-04-29 07:52
I'd like to point out two of the neatest things that I've seen here:
1 - the suggestion to GET INVOLVED. At one of the high schools where I teach privately, the jazz band is run by one of the band parents--who also happens to be a terrific reed player.
2 - The idea of a 'music class' during school with band being an after-school activity. My hat's off to any band director who can fight the temptation to make it all rehearsal time, but in principle I really like the idea.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mike Irish
Date: 2001-04-30 12:19
unless you took the " theory " class, which was very little playing, you didnt learn much theory in my school...... some one says we will play this in the key of - - -
and I have to look it up to see what flats or sharps I ahve....
Mike..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-05-02 01:07
Gosh, I never had a scrap of theory in H.S. But I learned how to jam! I love being an "intuitive" player, and one who can play by ear pretty well. But this only takes me so far in my technical abilities as a musician. I'm beginning to understand the wisdom of learning the underlying theory.
I really looked forward to playing in my college's band. Students had to take theory or pass a proficiency exam to get credit for all those hours practicing. My first inkling of how poor my rural high school education was came when I sat down to take that proficiency exam. The single question I could answer on the whole darn thing was what a pentatonic scale was (and that was due to my dear Latin teacher). Like several other people, I slunk out of the room several minutes later after(as instructed) erasing my name from the test and turning it into the pile that was not to be graded.
I dropped out of music for 10 years because of that. But I'm back now, older & hopefully growing wiser.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aravinda Bhatt
Date: 2001-05-08 22:03
hey i'm 16 and still in high school, i took music theory in school about 2 years ago, but thats probably because my school is the best music school in queens new york, not many schools teach theory but nowadays it is being taught in classes other than piano
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lindsey
Date: 2001-05-10 22:05
Ditto on not having Theory in Jr. High or HS. I got to college this year as a music ed major and was sooooooo behind all the private school kids who had private teachers (wasn't an option really in my tiny middle-of-nowhere town w/ parents who didn't care). I could read music in terms of where my fingers would go but couldn't even tell you what the note name was w/o going through the alphabet from the few I did know. I'm still behind and have a tutor and will be retaking theory 1 next fall because of the circumstances. Although the "get involved" works for some schools, not all of them are willing to listen unfortunately. :o( Must be why I'm a music ed major...I want to make that difference! :-D
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
