 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-04-04 11:43
I just had an interesting thought after I finished doing my daily practice. Is it even remotely possible to get worse over time, by practicing? I'm not talking about say over practicing a passage or learning a new technique the wrong way, but just generally how you play.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-04 12:05
no
I was going to leave my response at that, but you may need to snap out of a 'robotic routine.' It's all about LISTENING to yourself; constant evaluation and RE-evaluation of the sound you hear from yourself (in time.....I am a firm advocate of being able to do this WITHOUT recording yourself and stopping to listen 'postmortem').
As an example, whenever I play I obsesses over my throat 'Bb' whenever it comes up. I am always trying to make it a better note (whether in terms of speed and resonance or just resonance), and that's after 40 years of them.
I guess what I am saying is that practice should never FEEL routine. Every time you play is another opportunity to improve.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Steve L
Date: 2015-04-04 13:52
If you are thinking you are getting worse then I'd say whatever is making you think that, whether its a particular piece, a scale or whatever, then put it to one side and leave it alone for a few months and practice something else.
I find changing practice material regularly is helpful because when you go back to that piece or scale some months down the line and notice that its got easier, its only then you can gauge your improvement.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-04-04 16:41
Two things. First, tell me how and what aspect of 'playing' you think might get worse (as there are many goals to practice), and second, what practice techniques are you using to overcome problems and/or make progress?
Hypothetically, an accidental undesired action could be repeated, but you would notice that. For me, when that happens, I change my approach, from 'play everything slowly' to 'at speed, isolate the problem interval and add notes', or some other variant, as suggested above. But sometimes, a complete change of perspective helps, and recording yourself, or listening to a recording while following the score (if you can find it) is useful. Since you are likely building neural connections, be patient with yourself.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-04 17:11
Depends on what you're calling "worse."
Your standards may become higher as you practice, making you more self-critical than you had been.
Boredom can lull you into sloppiness that can mimic "getting worse."
Mono-focusing on one aspect of playing to the point of letting other ones slip from inattention can cause the neglected areas to become, again, sloppy and get out of control.
You avoid most of this by constantly listening attentively to your own playing. As your standards rise, set new goals. Avoid global self-characterizations of your playing as "good," "bad," "better," or "worse." Think instead of how well you are executing *specific* musical and technical tasks and work to improve the ones that need improvement.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-04 17:22
Often, I seemed to notice that I was standing still in improvements ... and that some others around me were getting worse! A matter to relativity ....
Some of us are our own worse critic of our playing and adjust our standards to meet our gradually improving musicianship. Actually, that is good ...
Yes, it does seem that I've gone backwards for a while, even with steady practice ... but that is usually a sign that a breakthrough is near ...
If your negative perception continues, enlist the services of a great teacher that can objectively evaluate you progress over time.
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-04 18:26
Ok..everyone's entitled to their opinion...I get that, but so strongly do I feel that the answer to this question (as supported by many professional musicians far far more proficient than me) is "yes," that I'm almost inclined to say:
"the correct answer is "yes' " -- but I won't. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Now Quinton, not to split hairs, but had you asked "Is It Possible [in the long run] to Get Worse After Good Practice," I would have said "no." And of course maybe that's what you mean..."Good" Practice. Which I best define.
I recognize that you wrote about "over practicing a passage or learning a new technique the wrong way," suggesting that you understand aspects of counterproduct practice, I just want to build on that idea.
Good Practice is the focused repetition of phrases, taking the metronome no faster than you can accurately play. It's not done when exhausted, very upset or injured, or at the end of the day, much that I realize the realities of many of us holding 9 to 5 jobs that need to take priority.
Even when feeling fresh, to take passages faster than you can handle, is, to paraphrase Karl above from another thread, "reinforce failure." You are teaching yourself to play something wrong, and the more you do it, the more counterproductive it becomes: witness the player who over many years has developed bad habits, and the difficulty there is in breaking them. Many classically trained musicians avoid practicing when tired for these reasons.
As already touched upon in this thread, there may come a time during a practice session when its time to stop, or simply stop looking at music giving you grief, and come back to it when fresh.
If practice couldn't make you worse, teachers would not be concerned with their students attention to proper technique during practice.
Post Edited (2015-04-04 18:28)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-04 20:07
Yes.
Slow practice is the foundation of clean technique. If you practice a scale or difficult passage any faster than perfect, you engrave the mistakes into your muscle memory.
Fast practicing also teaches you to play fast and sloppy rather than a bit slower and accurate. This is always bad.
Also, if you practice until you get repetitive stress injury, you can mess yourself up for years.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-05 01:41
well, ANY practice it better than none at all.
I have seen several examples of pretty decent high school level players who "discovered" that they sounded better after taking a week off. They applied what the learned until they no longer played their instruments. They didn't really care that much to begin with but I found the underlying rationalization of an exit strategy most disturbing.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2015-04-05 02:22
I've a few students over the years who have said this.
It's not that they're getting worse, it's just that the more they practice, the more they notice little things wrong about their playing that they didn't notice before.
The better they get, the more self-critical they get, which is a good thing.
And sometimes the better you get, the more challenging it is to keep getting better at the same pace, so you feel like you're lagging behind.
And finally, the old adage: the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-05 06:54
"well, ANY practice it better than none at all."
When examined over the course of days or weeks, or for that matter frequently, of course performance doesn't advance, worse, suffers without practice. Instrument play is a perishable skill, unlike the basics of riding a bike, that needs reinforcement to maintain, work to improve, and as Jaysne says, more work to improve from equidistant levels "B to C," than from "A to B."
But every so often it is better to step away from the instrument and, say, sleep, than commit to sloppy practice, as doing so at best benefits little, and could actually be counterproductive.
And people, don't practice slow and don't practice fast. Practice at a speed that you can handle the music at, that pretty much caps out at performance tempo. You may want to practice faster then performance tempo to give yourself flexibilty with a conductor's discretion on tempo, and to make sure that if you can "play it at 110, that 100 won't be an issue."
Finally you may want to take an easy exercise fast to challenge yourself.
But practicing faster than what you can handle can reinforces errors, and practicing slower than your ability wastes your time.
http://www.kalmenopperman.com/
"There's no substitute for hard work, and remember that time is your most precious commodity."
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-05 09:25
"It's not that they're getting worse, it's just that the more they practice, the more they notice little things wrong about their playing that they didn't notice before.
The better they get, the more self-critical they get, which is a good thing."
Definitely going through this at the moment. I've had very few practice sessions lately where I was really happy with how I sounded, yet when I listen to recordings of myself from as recently as a few months ago I hear considerable improvement. I guess self-criticism is a far better alternative to complacency.
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2015-04-05 20:01
I remember being very upset in the middle of grad school and complaining to my sax professor that I couldn't even play a C scale properly anymore.
Looking back, obviously I could. But I was now at a high level of playing where what qualified as acceptable before no longer was.
Post Edited (2015-04-05 20:01)
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