 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-02 02:00
I wish I could go back to 2010 when I picked up clarinet after 38 years off, and tell myself...
* "Get the latest model Ridenour clarinet
* and a 5RV Lyre mouthpiece
* and a basic Rovner ligature
* and a box of FIFTY Vandoren traditional reeds #3
* and a Ridenour ATG reed finishing system,
* and a proper reed trimmer with regulator,
...and learn to use all of them together, and don't spend time, $, or mental energy on alternatives to any of them."
I could sure have saved a lot of all 3 of those.
And of course, I'm not yet sure about those blue box reeds being my best choice, AW 302's are still in the running (based on a free sample of ONE), and tomorrow I might try something else. But I've sure rejected a lot of other promising possibilities. Sigh.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-02 02:20)
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2015-04-02 06:00
Stan, I started a little earlier than you, but I, too, wish I had not paid over $500 for a Selmer Signet Special (SSS I call it), only a year later to buy a brand new R13 (not sad about that though).
Yeah, we all do dumb things unwittingly, but my teacher at the time suggested the SSS, and I was naive then. It has a good sound, but god-awful intonation.
CarlT
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-02 21:02
We can’t go back in time; only learn from mistakes (which we all make,) not repeat them, and hope others read and learn from our stories, so they don’t make the same mistakes.
You are a nice guy Stan. You are always a gentleman here. I may appear a bit harsh below. But some of the individual bullet items you cite, to my mind, are endemic to a larger problem pervasive to many players: the attempt to fix playing limitations with gear rather than with self.
By no means am I against players having good equipment. Rather, I am for the economic use of money and time to promote clarinet advancement, and that said money is no better spent, IMHO, than on meaningful instructors, assigning the meaningful grunt work of time tested study guides, and students disciplined to never playing outside the lines if it comes at the expensive of time devoted to metronomic repetition of said assigned “etude 52.”
Untold people hours went into developing and peer reviewing/refining these 100 year old books. Their sales have withstood the test of time, despite and unlike reeds, their reusability. By no means I’m a chastising, say, the wannabe jazz clarinetist who spends time listening to and playing licks with the local jazz radio station. It’s essential, but must not cause etude work to suffer.
As I recall, many (but not all) of the issues you cited had root in your desire to reliably hit C8, a.k.a upper altissimo C, 5 1/2 bars above the treble staff. It was important to you: the culmination of your spiritual clarinet genre, and most people here respected that (as they should.) It was interesting for me to read about various reed brands and techniques you tried, from synthetics to bee’s wax application on cane, to brands I’ve never used, and what you thought of them. Happy to hear you think that you’d found a somewhat reliable reed break-in methodology to achieve this “High-C objective,” I’d be sadden, but not surprised to subsequently learn of the technique’s less than universal applicability over time. My lack of surprise speaks nothing to your reed adjustment abilities, and everything to the idea that “if reeds were human, they’d be sociopaths.”
People made well intentioned gear change suggestions, told you to take in more or less of this or that mouthpiece, and described best they could what they did with gear and technique to reliably hit such notes. Embouchure and alternative fingerings I'm all but certain were discussed. I’m sure I spoke of how I, against best practices, find myself taking in more mouthpiece mid-play, in anticipating for hitting this very note, for example, in the second page of Spohr’s 1st clarinet concerto’s 1st mvmt.
Only after numerous reed brands and setups had failed you, while I, far less than virtuosic, could very consistently hit this note on numerous mouthpieces and reed brands, did I develop the confidence and frustration to say, “Stan, you’ve got to seek out a good teacher.”
Doing so might have quickly identified if equipment at your end needed adjustment, as an instructor tried your instrument, with success of failure, to achieve C8, and quite possibly you tried their setup, where the instructor hitting C8 was routine. It might have also identified, early on, if, and I say this humbly, it was you mostly your proficiency that needed adjustment.
And yes, this might have resulted in your purchase of, say, Bearmann’s 3rd Division Method, and commitment to lessons, where such strastopheric exercises are common fare. C8 might have still been slow for you to produce and initially elusive, but perhaps more reliable with time across gear (including reed) changes.
In the interest of fairness, I do agree that Ridenour clarinets and the ATG system are great, and a 5RV Lyre is a great mouthpiece. I’m not so keen on ligatures, and the overuse of ATG techniques to balance reeds (which leads to clipping) over micro adjustment (hair’s width) to reed position on the mouthpiece: up for weak reeds ( and vice versa,) and to the left for right flank strength compared to left (and vice versa). I concur that Vandoren reeds vary, and often require adjustment, such that having them in quantities helps.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-02 22:17
Hey Dave- wise comments, and no arguments from me on many points.
I did walk in with eyes open with respect to the down side of my initial approach (go it mostly alone, follow my own objectives, etc). That is, I knew I would toil longer and harder for some aspects of play, perhaps delaying or entirely missing some good and desirable play characteristics in the process. But also expecting to arrive at a destination closer to my own initial targets than if I'd followed the wide avenue... and I'm still satisfied with my choices. It would have been wonderful to have the ideal personal instructor. I did look around for anyone... ANYONE... playing what I heard in my head, the way I wanted to play it... who I might sign on with. Nada. (Not saying they do not exist- I did not find them and still have not.) Whether my playing goals were good or bad is beside the point, they were and are my goals and were what motivated me to start in the first place. And if I get where I want and nobody cares to listen, so be it.
(I did have a brief consultation in a local store about 2011 where I was getting service, with their clarinet teacher, about why middle E-F were so out of tune on an old Noblet even after repairs. I left thinking I already knew much more on the subject than he did, maybe true maybe not. Possibly he even said exactly the right things and I was not in a frame of mind to accept them. Been there done that. And of course that was a sample of one. But it did reconfirm for me that finding the right teacher to really help me- counting working with me as a large part of that- would be difficult at best.)
In this respect, I think it is much easier for someone who desires to play Mozart, or even modern jazz, on clarinet- there are many choices of instructor readily available most anywhere you live. (Wise choice is still important- not all are worthy.)
For any of us with any goals, the wrong instructor (even a great player and teacher, just not right for you) can be worse than no instructor. And that is what I feared the most.
And my post is just saying I wish I could have had the answers in the first place, without expending the effort to find them. The answers for me, personally, that is- not somebody else's take on it. But there is no free lunch. And if there was, we wouldn't appreciate it. But we still wish it was free.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-02 22:23)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-02 22:49
A bit of my own music history may help you understand my opinions and attitudes. I took piano lessons I think about 5 years from a very good instructor in Houston- this would have been about 1962 to 1967, I was 9 to 14. Every bit of it was "play these notes from the page, as written". Mr George was a pro jazz player, and I'm quite certain HE didn't just play written arrangements. But nothing ever about improvisation, chords, bass patterns...
My parents bought me a Thomas organ and I took lessons a year or 2 at the store when I was 14-15... nice old lady (probably not as old as I remember her, LOL). She got me a fake book, and showed me how to play from melody line and chords- a whole new world for me, which I then transferred back to piano. But she could only take me so far- I recall trying to get her take on why dotted eights / sixteenth patterns were usually played as triplets, and she had no idea what I was talking about. So once again I had no instructor to help me advance. And where was I going to find one- at the University of Houston school of music, with their classical organ agenda? Right. And today I still wonder if my characterizations were and are fair. Maybe, maybe not. Later I looked at UH's 1970 music course catalog and was not tempted by anything. Engineering here we come.
During these years I altered my basic piano style to stride, by experimentation and persistence. (I didn't learn for another 20-30 years I was a stride player.) I could go on, but maybe you get the picture.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-03 01:14
I can entirely appreciate how your history of self motivation and discovery, once taught the basics, coupled with the desire to sooner avoid teachers, than work under counterproductive ones, lead you to prefer self discovery, even if not the most efficient route (although more efficient than a counterproductive teacher.)
Even with great teachers, there has to be a feel.
Perhaps, like democracy, private teachers are the worst learning method (form of government), except for all the others. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2015-04-03 02:00
I'm glad I went through my buy it and try it phase. Now when I'm bored with the Cadenza I can play a Dynamique. When I'm tired of that there is an LL or the old pre R13 Buffet I learned on. Tiring of all those there is an Amati C, or a Normandy Eb or Prestige bass or even a Ridenour Basset or Symphonie II in A. Now if I could just get my hearing back to the point where I could tell which one I was playing without looking at it.
I love private teachers, they give me motivation to practice so I look like I'm progressing. One $50 lesson invokes at least 100 hours of practice.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-03 18:50
Bill, that's perfectly cool. My advise is about finding, for the largest audience, the shortest distance (despite it still being quite long and arduous) to clarinet proficiency, spending money the wisest along the way.
Some players enjoy taking "excusion trips" along the way, be it involving the purchase of gear that may be only tangential to our improvement, playing outside the box of assigned lesson materials to the latter's detriment, or not practicing "enough." As long as the excusions are worth to a player more than the possible loss of proficiency that instead staying focused might have provided, I say go for it. Sometimes we even need such diversions to remain motivated.
To the purist, doublers take the diversions of learning another instrument, like saxophone, stealing time, and some argue embouchure (I don't agree) from clarinet. Meanwhile, in the real world where, full time classical clarinet positions in orchestras, let alone decent paying ones, are as rare as being struck by lightning, they're more likely to get gigs. So..so much for focus if you can't pay the rent.
It's the budding player who wants maximum advancement, already possessing good gear, who, in their case, wastes money and time buying a "Silverstein ligature," when for a fraction of that cost ($11) they could have bought Opperman's advanced velocity studies and worked on that, that irks me.
This is not a dig at Silverstein ligatures per se, as much as it says that in this case, the student needed a practice upgrade, not a ligature upgrade.
In your case the funds you spent to acquire your gear, (and now don't have to purchase other things with) seems to provide you more joy in adding variety to your maintaining clarinet interest, and seems to be worth more to you than what those lost funds would have gotten you elsewhere. You value things differently than others, and thank goodness you do; for if we all valued things the same, we wouldn't trade, and if we didn't trade we might have to make every product we need ourselves.
I agree that great teachers touch upon concepts that the student might not have initially even contemplated, but I hope they also do more than act as a motivational coach. Like a good personal trainer, they should not only keep your working, but doing so correctly.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-03 20:56
And here's what I'd tell my "old self" about these choices, based on what I think I know now. Remember, I'm talking to me, not you. Your mileage may vary.
* the latest model Ridenour clarinet- There are many fine instruments that play wonderfully, old and new, $$ $$$ or $$$$. And some real stinkers, even with good reputations and costing $$$$. And mostly in between, OK but with flaws of one kind or another. You need to know from the beginning you have a horn with great intonation and top notch playability, that will take you anywhere you want to go, for the lowest cost. Everything Ridenour ever made (including good examples of the TR147) fills this bill.
* a 5RV Lyre mouthpiece- Get one immediately, and compare periodically to any other candidates that are easily available- or don't. But if you're not able to play well on the 5RV Lyre, you're doing something wrong.
* and a basic Rovner ligature- No nonsense, works great. Anything else you try that seems to be better- the benefit will be fleeting, don't get suckered in.
* and a box of FIFTY Vandoren traditional reeds #3- This is the basic standard, if you can't play well on it you need to keep trying. Until you learn to adjust reeds, count on only using 10% to 30% of them. With adjustment you may get that up to 60% or more. Try to waste as little time as possible on the bad ones, though that may continue to be your main playing problem for the rest of your playing days. (The problem is that they shift from bad to good and good to bad, and back, during breakin and later playing sessions.) Do not pursue the pipe dream of synthetics. 50 reeds may last you a year or so. Oh- and you may need to play #2.5 for a while, but keep striving up to #3. Or don't (still not sure).
* and a Ridenour ATG reed finishing system- There are many methods available, but this one is easy to get immediate good results from, and eventually you'll pretty much always know what to do to improve things. Or when you've proven a given reed is no longer worth your attention. And you'll learn that just a trifling little ATG touch can often revive a dull reed, like magic (you'll suspect a placebo effect, but you'll prove to yourself that it's real), to the point you may consider just always doing it.
* and a proper reed trimmer with regulator- When a reed gets too compliant, not much you can do but trim a little from the end. Initially you'll be too shy about this, afraid that after a trim or 2 the reed will be shot. Not true, if you trim the triflingest amount off each time (which is why you have to have the regulator for precision). You will be amazed to learn that even the tiniest trim may restore play on a reed that seemed much deader than last play session (maybe it's the compression of the tip?). With or without a little bit of ATG. And you can do this 10's (maybe 100's?) of times to one reed over its life.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-04-03 21:50)
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