 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jqwerty
Date: 2015-03-07 07:01
I'm editing a score for large orchestra written in the early part of the 20th century.
The first movement opens in A major (three sharps), but is scored for Clarinets in Bb (Already strange...). The composer uses a key signature for the transposing parts and score of two sharps! (instead of what one would expect: Five sharps).
Two questions:
1) is there any technical or optical reason to do this? Does it avoid double accidentals?
2) can anybody think of any other examples of works where the key signature of the clarinet parts is different than what one would expect given the instrument and global key signature?
Thanks,
jqwerty
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-07 07:25
jqwerty wrote:
> 2) can anybody think of any other examples of works where the
> key signature of the clarinet parts is different than what one
> would expect given the instrument and global key signature?
>
Do you mean on purpose?
If it isn't sloppy editing, I can't think of a reason. I've certainly seen examples of wrong key signatures in clarinet parts, but I couldn't come up with specific ones. Was this a major composer? It sounds intriguing.
Karl
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Author: jqwerty
Date: 2015-03-07 07:42
Yes this was definitely on purpose; I am working from the composer's manuscript and though messy, it is extremely rigorous. He writes Bass Clarinet in Bb with the same key sig, and all the auxiliary accidentals reflect the two sharps in the key signature as well..
This is not a major international composer, but somebody with a good educational pedigree and well respected in his country (Chile) at the time. He spent much time in Europe during his formative years; he seems to have been influenced by what was happening in Italy, all the indications in the score are in Italian (not Spanish his native tongue).
I do remember seeing a score (maybe Berlioz?) where there were a sequence of key changes, and the composer kept the clarinets in the same key signature for large sections – probably for ease of notation and reading than anything else. Just curious if there is any 'clarinet' reason for dropping three sharps from A major?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-07 12:33
Given that it's early 20th century, is it polytonal? Can you tell if the clarinets really *are* in (concert) C Major?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-07 14:51
Maybe it's modal music so he's saving himself adding natural accidentals to certain notes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-03-07 17:14
I would hazard a guess that the parts were written in C in the the score with the intention of publishing Bb parts. Very much like Prokofiev scores that are all in C and then show what clarinet to use to the publishers.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: jqwerty
Date: 2015-03-07 18:26
The music is quite tonal (think early Schoenberg for instance — pelléas, transfigured night etc) there is no doubt that the clarinets in the score are written as transposing Bb instruments (given many doublings with other instruments). Although the key signature overall is A Maj, there are many harmonic alterations so you can't really say the music rests in A Maj for long periods.
In preparing this edition I need to decide whether to keep this idiosyncrasy or to present clarinet parts in the 'normal' 5 #. Any thoughts what players or conductors would prefer?
Also strictly from an ease of readability point, it would be much simpler to write clarinets in A — but I must assume the composer used the Bb instrument for the different sound. A later movement does in fact use clarinet in A.
Thanks for all your great replies
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Author: davyd
Date: 2015-03-07 19:01
I've seen instances as far back as Haydn of clarinets having the "wrong" key signature but the correct accidentals. Why composers do that, I dunno. Annoyance at having to deal with transpositions, perhaps?
My preference: provide Bb parts with the correct key signature, and also provide A parts. That covers all (reasonable) possibilities.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-07 22:03
In Haydn's and Mozart's time key signatures of greater than 2 sharps or flats were avoided by convention because of the mechanical limitations of the instruments. Accidentals out of the key were acceptable as needed for transient key relationships, and I think sometimes composers followed the rule out of custom even when the real signature should have been more than 2 of something.
I don't think that would have been something a 20th century composer would have done unless he was making some kind of musicological gesture. Do you have others of his orchestral works to use as a guide?
As to how conductors or players would prefer it, for myself in either position I'd say I wouldn't care. It would be important if you retain the "wrong" signatures to include an editorial note explaining that it was the composer's decision for unknown reasons. It would be best to save performers and possibly future editors any confusion or doubt about whether the signatures are intentional or not.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-03-07 22:05)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-03-08 00:08
So the manuscript clearly states clarinets in Bb with a concert pitch of A major? Are we to assume that your edition will be the first published edition and that this piece has not been performed either in the composers lifetime or not? I only ask because it would be clear to have clarinets in A.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: jqwerty
Date: 2015-03-08 00:36
Yes, first movement calls for Clarinets in Bb despite the overall 'tonality' A major. Second movement calls for Clarinets in A.
The piece has not been published, however there is an existing set of handwritten parts and score (along with the manuscript) and they all adhere to the same key signatures. It was performed many times in the composer's lifetime, and since – including a performance by the Berlin Philharmonic of 1922!
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-03-09 00:46
Great, would love to know more on the composer. I'm working on something similar. I discovered a previously unknown concerto for our instrument...
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-03-09 03:19
Just out of curiosity, does the tonality stay in A major throughout the movement or does it change, perhaps to a minor key?
Best regards,
jnk
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