 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-04 19:47
This is a beginner's question.
I recently received my repaired R13 from the buffet agent down here. The barrel was very loose. After struggling with it for a while I decided to try my spare Selmer Recital 442 barrel, which fit perfectly.
When I played with this set-up I got the shock of my life. The R13 just about blew me out of the water. It made beautiful sounds and was much easier to blow. The low E/F/G's flowed like molten chocolate and the high notes sounded pitch perfect. I swapped the barrels back and forth to convince myself I wasn't imagining things. Nope! The R13 with the Selmer barrel is a much better set up for me and I have been using it for a few days now.
Today I had the bright idea if trying the R13 barrel on the Selmer. It fit perfectly (???) and played pretty much like the original Selmer barrel, making the lovely mellow low notes and ringing highs I usually get out of this instrument (when I work hard at it).
I have two questions:
1. Huh? What is going on?. I know that the Selmer has a bigger bore and a "bulgier" outer profile. Does this make the difference to the sound?
2. Given that this set up has made such a difference to me, should I try some add-on barrels like Backun, BC Chadash etc. or is this a waste of time for a beginner?
I used a Vandoren M15 and V12 #3 reeds for both clarinets by the way. Please enlighten me if you can, firstly to satisfy my curiosity but also to allow me to have the best set up possible.
Post Edited (2015-03-04 19:52)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-04 20:56
Selmer Recitals have a considerably smaller bore than most clarinets - they're around 14.3mm as opposed to the 14.65mm bore of an R13, but barrels often have a larger bore compared to the rest of the instrument.
You do know that if you mix Selmer barrels with Buffet clarinets, they will spontaneously combust. So be careful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-05 01:35
What do you know! I checked online and you are right. I was told when I got the Selmer that it had a larger bore and thicker body. I just accepted it at face value.
I would still like to know why it plays better though.
Is the danger of combustion due to the friction between Buffet and Selmer? Or between the aficionados?
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2015-03-05 02:04
Before you fall in love, check them with a chromatic tuner.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-03-05 05:44
Barrels are a mystery. I know that you can be given a set of standard Buffet barrels of allegedly identical specification and yet the instrument sounds very distinctly different with each one. I've had the same experience with other makes of clarinets. So the change you find with the Selmer barrel might be no bigger than you would have got with a different Buffet barrel.
Why are they all so different? It can only be differences in getting an accurate shape to the bore, or something to do with how a particular piece of wood resonates, based on its internal structure. I know that Peter Eaton supports the latter explanation, and indeed with modern equipment you'd expect the dimensions to be very consistent (although the wood can move after cutting, I suppose).
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-05 05:52
It surprised me that it was in tune - or so I thought.
As per your suggestion Allan, I now checked the R13 with Cleartune on a Samsung Note 2 running from E3 to C6. It's not the best tool but still gave me an indication of how the notes track.
The pitch is high below G5 and very high at low chalumeau (+10 to 15Hz). I pulled the barrel out about 1-2mm and the tuning is much better. The sound is still great, much better than on the factory BC barrel.
I will capture a slow chromatic scale on my PC and hit it with my trusty old CoolEdit to get the fundamental frequencies correct.
And I'm still in love!
Post Edited (2015-03-05 06:02)
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-05 06:22
I just talked to my instrument maker/repairer and he said much the same thing as you John. I wish there was some nice clean technical way to grade these things according to one's needs and liking but as the maestro said, wood is a living thing and it does it's own thing.
I guess I will be trying barrels at the sax and woodwind shop next week. (There goes another couple of hundred bucks... says the missus.)
By the way, this is my second BC barrel. The first developed two cracks on opposite sides and was replaced. It felt and sounded much the same as this one.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-05 06:24
Philip Caron: Can't be a conspiracy. Both Buffet and Selmer are French!
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Author: j8649
Date: 2015-03-05 07:42
Hi Joe,
I would check your set up with a tuner. Selmer Recital barrels are usually shorter 62.5 or 64.5 mm than what is typically used on an R13 (65 or 66 mm).
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-05 09:01
Yes Julie I already found that I am tuned too high and need to pull out the Selmer barrel to get back into pitch. I will try to get a barrel ring but even if that works, a'hunting I will go for a new barrel.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-06 07:34
A narrow-bore barrel (Recital-like) with R13 (or a similar clarinet) is an experience worth trying. I feel the key to possibly making it work is a more open mouthpiece (and relatively hard reeds),with more flexibility to control the pitch. The chalumeau sounds gorgeous. Clarion and altissimo definitely needs to be worked much harder on.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-06 07:52
Just got back to the grinding stone.
I agree ClaV although I don't have any problems with the clarion either. The altissimo may be an issue - once I get to play up there!
I tuned the instrument this morning using more sophisticated methods (CoolEdit and Audacity spectrum analysers and filters etc.) and the barrel is now about 2.5mm out for the best chromatic match. The throat notes were the hardest to tune for but this set up is the best compromise along the scale.
The instrument sounds better than I have ever heard it before and even my better-half and fiercest critic agrees. I just can't get over it.
I will be asking about Backun Fatboys etc. in another post as I am going shopping tomorrow and next week.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-06 07:58
Joe M.
In my experience, Backun Fatboys have many features of those Selmer-like barrels, so they should be definitely be great for you to try!
In my experience (of my son doing the playing and me listening and measuring...) not so much the tuning, but the quality of the tone in clarion and altissimo and especially rapid changes require more control with a narrow-bore barrels.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-06 09:54
Thank you ClaV. I have just booked for tomorrow morning to try the Fatboy in Cocobolo and Grenadilla and I might also try the Backun Moba range while I'm there. The Moba probably has too much resistance for me but we shall see.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-06 15:45
Great to hear! If you are happy with a Recital barrel, MoBa won't be likely too extreme. Definitely try as much as you can - there a lot of variations in those barrels, which is to your advantage if you can test several of them and see what works for you. Also an important point is to make sure that the humidity of the place you test the barrels is the same as in your clarinet environment. If possibly not - borrowing your favourite ones for a couple of days to equilibrate to same conditions may be a good idea.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-06 16:30
ClaV, this is the bottom of the world! Not as in the back-side, just far from everything. I am very lucky they have any Backun barrels at all (and that they are on special - US$156 for the Fatboy, US$176 for the MoBa).
The market here is tiny and the cost of imported goods from anywhere but China is sky high, so they don't stock very much of anything. You guys in North America are spoiled for choice. You probably have as many clarinet and saxophone players there as the whole of the population here.
I will be able to try a couple of barrels if I'm lucky. As for borrowing one... not a chance. But I will give it a try anyway. They may allow me to pay-and-rotate. Who knows.
I sure hope that it's the Cocobolo that works for me because I love the look of that wood, but sound comes first. If I don't like what I see or hear I can stick with the Selmer. I did a couple of hours with it just now and I'm still in love.
Thanks for your suggestions and interest.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-07 07:59
I spent most of the morning at the Sax and Woodwind shop and I am now the proud owner of a 65mm Backun Fatboy in Cocobolo!
I was wrong. They had a selection of barrels and I tried the lot. The MoBa's sounded fantastic, rich and powerful, and looked stunning but they had much more resistance than the Fatboy. Not a huge amount and still less than the original BC barrel but still noticeable. If I was more experienced I would have gone for one of them - and I may still get one in the near-future. At any rate, the Fatboy just blew me away - pun intended.
We tested the tuning on one of their tuner boxes and the results were good. I will recheck it in a couple of months.
I also tested a Backun Traditional bell but I didn't feel that it made much difference to my sound at this stage so I have put it on the backburner.
Thank you all again.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-07 08:13
Joe M. wrote:
> I spent most of the morning at the Sax and Woodwind shop and I
> am now the proud owner of a 65mm Backun Fatboy in Cocobolo!
>
Joe, really great to hear that you had an opportunity to test a good selection of barrels and congratulations on your new addition! Cocobolo is a really nice wood!
In my limited experience, MoBa seems to pair well with more opened mouthpieces.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-07 10:22
ClaV I was told to come back any time and I will. From what you say it's worth having a go at an open mouthpiece.
I will borrow a mouthpiece from my teacher (first lesson this year is in two weeks), as he has a huge collection for clarinet and sax, and I will retest the MoBa. It's worth half the price just as a work of art.
As I said above I am using an M15. I also have a B45, which I started on. Which mouthpiece would you recommend I try?
By the way I forgot to thank him: all praise to Morrie Backun!
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-07 20:05
Joe M. wrote:
> ClaV I was told to come back any time and I will. From what you
> say it's worth having a go at an open mouthpiece.
>
> I will borrow a mouthpiece from my teacher (first lesson this
> year is in two weeks), as he has a huge collection for clarinet
> and sax, and I will retest the MoBa. It's worth half the price
> just as a work of art.
>
> As I said above I am using an M15. I also have a B45, which I
> started on. Which mouthpiece would you recommend I try?
>
> By the way I forgot to thank him: all praise to Morrie Backun!
Joe, I am happy to share my experience.
First, I should say (from experience) that getting more gears does not substitute practice, it can make playing easier and really assist developing or it may distract (in our family I got over-fascinated with clarinet acoustics and tried several things with my son who was mastering clarinet (you should see his face saying: "Testing these barrels?? not again...); in my few notes playing, M13lyre and Protege barrel work the best with my proudly restored Noblet Artist, more advanced barrels and fancy ligatures are to no avail...)
An overall picture to keep in mind is that an acoustic setup consists of a clarinet (R13 in your case, old Opus of my son - which are very similar in their bore and not far in resistance with my limited experience with R13), a barrel, mouthpiece, reed, and, most importantly, the player (and the players are most unique/varied).
What I found very difficult in trying new mouthpieces is getting right reeds for the setup (a very important part - I strongly feel that mouthpiece/reed should be considered in tests rather than just a mouthpiece) since you start to try two things at once (a mouthpiece and reeds, plus your playing should adjust and the right adjustment may take more time than you have for tests).
So starting with new mouthpieces, getting right reeds for you and playing it comfortably with your existing setup first would be a good starting step.
Now, from our experience (and my limited understanding of acoustic) a very empowering setup is the one that consists of a very open mouthpiece with a long facing in a combination with a relatively hard (or hard) reed and a barrel that provides good resistance (like MoBa).
While physics may be the best - it implies a perfect player, and this setup is really hard to play (especially for the focontrol in upper clarion and altissimo).
My son went from M13lyre to M15 (a really great mouthpiece!) to M30 (mixed experience) ... Backun O+ which I then serendipitously adjusted to 1.35+ with a really long and flat/shallow facing (beautiful sound, really hard to play, he played it for a couple of months, his teacher did not mind...), now he is happy with Backun Arabesque and MoBa/traditionals (I found the bore parameters are more crucial than the barrel shape; FatBoys are, in my limited experience, most sophisticated/subtle of Backun's creations.
I definitely feel that Backun mouthpieces are subtly great (I am aware of some sentiments in this Board...); definitely a good Zinner-based mouthpiece will do a good job as well.
In Vandoren line, B40lyre may work as an open mouthpiece with a long facing (we never had a chance to test it).
In your case, trying M30 and M30lyre may be most instructive from M15.
As well, M15 may be your happiest mouthpiece and one of the things I can suggest - try to test harder reeds with it (this mouthpiece is really grateful in accepting harder reeds - you may love it) And getting new good reeds may be easier than mouthpieces (and good reeds are a must and a very hard part for some...)
Just see what works best for you and concentrate on playing enjoyably!
(Sorry if I was overly annoying talking about limitations, I just hope an overall perspective may be instructive).
I wholeheartedly agree: Maestro Backun does amazing things!
Post Edited (2015-03-07 20:42)
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-03-08 00:30
Thank you for that. I am well aware that great gear won't make up for bad technique which is why I practice so much and pay for a teacher. But I always found in the many fields which I have either mastered or dabbled-in that no amount of technique will overcome bad equipment.
Each upgrade I have had so far made it easier for me to play or dramatically improved my playing. The Selmer Recital is the exception in a sense because I find it much harder to play than the R13, but it has such a beautiful sound that it's well worth the effort.
As far as reeds are concerned, I have progressed from Rico standard 1.5 to Rico Royal 2, Vandoren Traditional 2, 2.5, Vandoren V12 3 and, having recently tried a couple of V12s at 3.5, I bought a box of them at the same time as my new barrel.
I like the V12s as they are easier to play than the Traditional (even when you match strengths) and most of them work right out of the box. But the traditional has a better, more focused sound for me and I have ten 3.5s ready to go if and when I can maintain the airflow.
I am very pleased with my M15, which I got after a suggestion from David (WhitePlainsDave) in another thread here. It plays well on both the R13 and the Recital. But I will borrow an M30 and an M30lyre and try the MoBa again. I love the sound and look of that thing and I am sure I will eventually own one.
My regards to your son as well. His experiences will help me with my music.
Post Edited (2015-03-08 09:47)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-08 02:44
Great to hear!
You have two great instruments to enjoy! (My son loved Recital when he tested it but it was a bit challenging for him to project).
My feeling (speculations) is that a MoBa barrel was in part an effort to recreate some best of Recital experience (tone and resistance) with other (common bore) clarinets; I know Morales played Recital for some time.
With your extensive reed experience, you will be in a good position testing new mouthpieces (it was a revelation for me how little adjustments in reed strength can make a huge difference for the success/ease of playing).
All the best to you in enjoying mastering clarinet playing!
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