 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-01 17:12
In my efforts to grasp what possibly limits clarinets in matching and surpassing the prominence and versatility of string instruments, eefer emerged as a critically missing element.
Imagine a string quarter or a string ensemble without violins! Perhaps imagination may not even need to be stretched that far...
Yet clarinet ensembles hardly ever use Eb sopranos. To make it even harder, eefers are frowned upon for being out of tune and shrilling (Can you picture viola players voting out violins for being too shrilling with their E strings, playing way too fast and being so hard to be in tune with? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif) )
What, (IMHO) is the most important about the eefer is that it is amenable for faster/virtuosic playing and that it has a unique tone/voice to become a prominent solo instrument.
Now, I do understand that eefer's acoustic designs are critically lacking and that Eb is so much more demanding for players to play, especially in tune.
What brings some good hope is that there seems to be a good potential pool of young players capable of taking the challenge (and people are always the most important part). So the missing part is affordable good instruments. There precision of CNC and new better materials should make it much easier nowadays. Yet, the proverbial circle of (less interest - less efforts/investments in design - poor instruments - even less players - less interest -) needs to be broken.
P.S. I am not a musician by any means - with all the limitations, as well as possible advantages of an less-biased outsider's perspective.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-03-01 17:41
All marching band music has Eb clarinet parts.
The world is full of perfectly playable Bundy Ebs. With a decent mouthpiece (e.g., Vandoren), they play at least well enough for marching band.
However, almost all marching bands substitute piccolos for flutes, so the high notes are already there.
Also, Eb clarinet requires a firmer embouchure and more control than the Bb. As a practical matter, a band director needs the best players on Bb.
And anyway, from 100 feet away, all you hear are the brass and percussion. Clarinets are inaudible, even with professional players (e.g., the West Point Band).
Finally, a marching band is about as different from a string quartet as it's possible to be.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-01 18:06
Ken Shaw wrote:
> All marching band music has Eb clarinet parts.
>
> The world is full of perfectly playable Bundy Ebs. With a
> decent mouthpiece (e.g., Vandoren), they play at least well
> enough for marching band.
>
> However, almost all marching bands substitute piccolos for
> flutes, so the high notes are already there.
>
> Also, Eb clarinet requires a firmer embouchure and more control
> than the Bb. As a practical matter, a band director needs the
> best players on Bb.
>
> And anyway, from 100 feet away, all you hear are the brass and
> percussion. Clarinets are inaudible, even with professional
> players (e.g., the West Point Band).
>
> Finally, a marching band is about as different from a string
> quartet as it's possible to be.
>
> Ken Shaw
That's a good perspective, thank you!
I meant more symphonic and chamber playing.
In marching bands, clarinets are already prominent and crucial instruments.
(String instruments would stand even less chance to be heard behind the brass and percussion)
Yes, I am sad about those band directors in need of best Bb players ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Using your example, if those Bundy Ebs (and players) were there to play nicely and comfortably (and with a good projection) in a range of more than three octaves, they would likely take a lot of piccolo parts.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-01 18:41
I once contacted Ted Ridenour to see if Tom had an E-flat in development or as a future product. Ted said that he understood that the E-flat had terrible inherent tuning characteristics, a limited market, and therefore not on their short list of projects. That's a shame, because if anyone could improve the design, it would be Tom Ridenour.
Back in the 1960s and earlier, the E-flats were always in use in concert bands in our area. As a matter of fact, our conductor picked the VERY BEST player to endure the torture of this little critter. And, they could play anything the B-flat players could! We just took it for granted. The instrument of choice, above all others, was the Selmer Series 9.
For unknown reasons, the quality of clarinetists just fell off a cliff in the 1970s, and the E-flats stayed in the storage room.
All sort of horror stories on how professionals try and play in tune, especially in the highest register ... some even finger the notes up 1/2 step and lip it down to pitch, so I've heard ...
IMHO, the E-flat is critical to the sound of a wind band. That little dash of spice to the woodwinds is essential and without it, it's a bland band sound.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-03-01 22:48)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-03-01 19:30
> Yet clarinet ensembles hardly ever use Eb sopranos.
I disagree - that is not the case in my part of the world.
Much of the clarinet choir literature contains Eb parts, as does a fair % of Wind Ensemble literature.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-03-01 19:58
I played Eb in an Air Force band in the early 60's. There were certainly tuning issues but once I knew the characteristics of my instrument (an Albert system Buffet) I was able to keep things in balance. While the Eb may lack in volume, its piecing tone carries well over the band when it needs to. I enjoyed my time on the eefer.
Tony F.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-01 21:08
pewd wrote:
>I disagree - that is not the case in my part of the world.
>Much of the clarinet choir literature contains Eb parts,
>as does a fair % of Wind Ensemble literature.
That would be the happiest "disagreement" to have.
I only had a chance to listen to few clarinet quartets (3Bb and bass); the transcriptions of the Clarinet Institute seem to gear that way as well.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-01 21:37
TomS wrote:
> I once contacted Ted Ridenour to see if Tom had an E-flat in development
>or as a future product. Ted said that he understood that the E-flat had
> terrible inherent tuning characteristics, a limited market, and therefore
> not on their short list of projects. That's a shame, because if anyone
> could improve the design, I would be Tom Ridenour.
...
> IMHO, the E-flat is critical to the sound of a wind band.
> That little dash of spice to the woodwinds is essential
> and without it, it's a bland band sound.
Absolutely, the E-flat development is critically lacking. There are great designers around but the motivation/resources for the development depends on the interest/demand for E-flats.
If E-flats are just to "spice" a band, then the current state of affairs would likely prevail.
If the E-flat can be revamped to take onto more prominent roles ас a solo instrument and a major part of clarinet quartet/quintet - then developers and players are there, IMHO, to fill their roles.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-01 22:59
We need a "kick starter" to acquire cash and send it to a good designer to do the best as possible with redesigning the little beast. Ridenour or Backun comes to mind ...
In the meantime, we could transpose to the clarinet in C ... it has a cute, sweet sound that adds something in an ensemble as well ... not quite the quaintness of the E-flat ...
I love the instrument, and played it for several years, back in the 1980s. My wife didn't appreciate my practice sessions, though ...
Tom
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-01 23:15
TomS wrote:
> We need a "kick starter" to acquire cash and send it to a good
> designer to do the best as possible with redesigning the little
> beast. Ridenour or Backun comes to mind ...
>
> In the meantime, we could transpose to the clarinet in C ... it
> has a cute, sweet sound that adds something in an ensemble as
> well ... not quite the quaintness of the E-flat ...
>
> I love the instrument, and played it for several years, back in
> the 1980s. My wife didn't appreciate my practice sessions,
> though ...
>
Stephen Fox definitely comes to mind.
It would be great, if a "kick starter" can be feasible!
I definitely agree about clarinet in C, its unique tone and beautiful orchestral parts (Beethoven 5-th) often sadly played by B-flat.
I never had a chance to encounter a good clarinet in C in person so far. (My son's (very good) teacher's major sentiments for clarinets in C and E-flat alto - transpose...
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-03-02 01:13
I just overhauled a Selmer Series 9 Eb clarinet with all cork pads. It was well in tune, easy to play and sounded great. There are many great C clarinets, also.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-02 04:48
Tom Ridenour makes a clarinet pitched in C that is inexpensive and perhaps the best available. Used by many professionals ...
Tom
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Author: ChiTownClarinet
Date: 2015-03-03 22:07
I agree, the eefer is very underutilized. I love playing it, though. I played it through college in our wind ensemble and school orchestra. I'm probably biased, having studied with a prominent Eb clarinetist during my university days.
Plus, dedicating time to the Eb can significantly improve one's Bb skills, especially in the altissimo.
I now play in a community band and I only get to use it when absolutely necessary in pieces, but I requested to play it full time and was denied. Why? Because our director (who is a clarinetist, BTW!) HATES it! In fact, he takes every opportunity to bad-mouth the instrument during rehearsals, claiming the eefer should not exist (this is despite the fact we almost never use it in our band). He is a very opinionated guy, and I think he just hates playing it himself.
I actually play with good intonation, IMHO, and our director was bad-mouthing the instrument well before I ever played it with our ensemble, so it's not just me, so far as I can tell. I think it's really tragic for someone to have that kind of bias against an instrument. After all, poor intonation is hardly exclusive to the Eb. Plus we're in the ensemble to have fun and grow as musicians, but I feel restricted there. I love diversity of instrumentation and the layers of tone colors different instruments can add.
After saving up for a long time, I recently splurged and ordered myself a Buffet RC prestige Eb, which will be a major step up from the vintage horn I currently have (tried a few prestiges and loved them!). So I think there are really good quality eefers out there (upper-line Buffets and Selmers), it's just a shame they cost so darn much!
I think a lot of people would consider it a waste to spend that kind of money on something that I'm not using regularly or professionally, but I did it for the simple love of the insturment.
In the mean time, as I anxiously await my delivery, I'm on the lookout for an ensemble that actually has the guts to use the eefer! Happy playing, all!
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-03-03 22:47
Clav brings up some interesting questions about the Eb clarinet and many have responded thoughtfully. I have played Eb off and on and have been privileged to play some of the wonderful orchestra works with Eb (Strauss, Mahler, Shostakovich, and Prokofiev). It was always quite a challenge, I admit. As mentioned by others, the Eb is frequently used for its shrill qualities and is often paired with the piccolo in both orchestra and wind ensemble pieces. Think about it, just how in tune is the average piccolo player and then add the Eb clarinet to that. Sometimes a painful situation, and yet it IS possible to play in tune and with a beautiful tone quality. I have a good Patricola Eb to which I added a Backun barrel that lets me use standard Bb clarinet reeds, an excellent Richard Hawkins mouthpiece, and a lower joint extension from Clark Fobes....all to be less shrill if I want to and to improve intonation.
Regarding the C clarinet, I have heard of players who used one of those in place of an Eb since many C's have a less strident tone overall.
Regarding the "development" of the Eb, I am not certain that it is true that it has been ignored so much as the difficulties of the bore and tone hole placement and all those compromises involved are much harder as a clarinet gets smaller. Even the guy who makes clarinets from carrots has to deal with that.
The really sad clarinet situation? The poor, ignored Eb alto clarinet. I think that is a much bigger deal, particularly for clarinet ensembles.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-04 03:19
Thank you all for great responses!
There are many good points that can be further reflected upon.
I will try to focus on a single question that was most important to me and that perhaps got a bit lost:
Can E-flat clarinet rise to become a virtuoso solo instrument that will bring new level of prominence to clarinets?
What would be the reasoning for it? Physics to start with. Shorter air columns of higher notes that can be played much faster (a simplified analogy would be B-flat clarinet being closer to a viola, while Eb closer to a violin; and that violin E string makes a lot of difference for fast passages!)
Should E-flats be necessarily shrill? Some violins can sound harsh as well For the violin, the factors are a choice of E-string, a violin itself, and most importantly the player that makes all the difference - Heifetz certainly comes to mind).
For E-flat clarinet, definitely playing with B-flat reed helps from what I know. A barrel choice helps. Overall the clarinet design can be better (and definitely more affordable! If not for limited demand how E-flats cost more with less material!) and definitely most importantly: can players rise to a challenge of virtuoso E-flat performance?
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-03-04 22:49
The problem is not the instrument, it's composers, by and large, who insist upon writing mostly in the instrument's altissimo register.
The eefer is a perfectly manageable instrument, even in the hands of less-than-expert players, when the parts written for them take advantage of the lower, throat, and clarion registers, and aren't written so that everything is in the stratosphere. They're not "necessarily shrill" when written for with care, and can provide very interesting tone colors, either as part of the clarinet section or partnering with other sections, especially the flutes.
Can it rise to become a "virtuoso solo instrument..."? Listen to some of the early compositions for the "high" clarinet such as Molter's, and you'll see that it already had.
Can it become a virtuoso solo instrument as part of a large-ensemble works? Only if composers familiarize themselves with the instrument and what it has to offer, and only if directors stop thinking about the eefer as an unnecessary piece of junk with only negatives and no positives.
B.
Post Edited (2015-03-04 22:50)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2015-03-06 04:37
I am doing the concert band version of Pines of the Appian Way. There is a wonderful screaming eefer part and lots of flutter/double tonguing. It is a joy to play and my Buffet RC Prestige eefer kicks its ass :-)
Post Edited (2015-03-06 04:37)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-06 07:20
bmcgar wrote:
> The problem is not the instrument, it's composers, by and large,
> who insist upon writing mostly in the instrument's altissimo register.
...
> Can it rise to become a "virtuoso solo instrument..."?
> Listen to some of the early compositions for the "high" clarinet
> such as Molter's, and you'll see that it already had.
> Can it become a virtuoso solo instrument as part of a large-ensemble
> works? Only if composers familiarize themselves with the instrument
> and what it has to offer, and only if directors stop thinking about the
> eefer as an unnecessary piece of junk with only negatives and no positives.
I will listen to Molter, thank you.
This thread was actually started out of the one discussing what clarinet choir can play music written for string quartets.
Given its potential for virtuosic playing, can E-flat be used for playing violin music. Can 2 E-flats and B-flat; or E-flat, C, and B-flat take on the parts of two violins in a string quarter?
Clarinet choirs can be absolutely beautiful. Morphed with virtuosity of E-flat, it can make a world of difference (or all the difference needed)!
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-03-17 06:47
@chitownclarinet
A lot of community bands won't use Eb regardless of the player's good intonation because it really clashes with the typically out of tune flute sections in those groups. Even what sounds like decent intonation between clarinets and flutes in octaves, if you put an Eb clarinet that pings exactly an octave above the 1st clarinets, it will sound like hell.
It kind of drives me insane that typical band directors will assume any intonation problem in the high range is a clarinet problem. Flute players, especially in bands play high E, F, F# and G's so sharp above a mp that its like they are in their own world.
If you want an opportunity to play Eb with a good band. Audition for the Wheaton Municipal Band in may. Auditions are blind and all sight reading.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-17 07:34
I've had the same issue - we played a piece in my school band recently that had fairly prominent Eb parts, and my director asked me to make cuts section by section until I ended up just playing the 1st Bb clarinet part. He was afraid of the potential for intonation issues with the flutes, even though up to that point there weren't any major issues, plus he said the Eb was making the band sound too bright. I guess I don't blame him, but it was a little disappointing.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2015-03-17 12:44
I have played many clarinets including eefers. With this experience you think you know what you can expect from different makes and models.
But sometimes you can be surprised:
Last week I tried an old Buffet eefer with a wrap around register key, so from probably around 1910 or so. To my surprise the instrument was in tune, even the altissimo was in tune without using extra keys! I was really surprised and as the instrument was also very cheap I bought it immediately.
It makes me think: Is this just a lucky shot? If not, why have most modern eefers inferior intonation?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-03-17 22:43
I hardly ever play eefer, the last couple of times involved the few bars of Eb clarinet in the 3rd clarinet book of Mahler's 1st (which is mainly A, C, and bass clarinets); but now I have a real challenge on my hands, the Shostakovich 5th. Seems like half the piece is altissimo F#s, and I'm in physical pain by the end of the rehearsal (not to mention the other players around me who are probably in severe auditory pain from listening to me, but are too considerate to say so).
I did double on Eb in a very good local concert band about ten years ago, and really enjoyed that -- sort of floating along the top of the Bb clarinet lines, adding a bit of projection without being strident or noticeable as a separate voice.
My instrument is an older wood one only marked "Czechoslovakia" so my guess is that it's a Kohlert from maybe the 1930s or 40s (pre-1947 anyway), or I suppose it could be a post-1947 Amati but who knows. Came without a barrel so I dug up a "Carl Fischer" 41mm barrel somewhere, not sure it's a very good match to the instrument but it's all I've got until the Robert Scott barrel (made from Delrin) I ordered from Muncy Winds arrives.
Along the lines of one of the comments from TomS, I'm having to concoct all sorts of fingering variations in the altissimo to come close to playing in tune, not enjoying that aspect! Hoping that with the new barrel and lots of practice I can start playing in tune up there one of these days.......
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-03-18 03:16
I just worked with my teacher on Eb altissimo recently (she plays Eb professionally.) The fingering-concocting never goes away. She suggested adding the throat G# key to the standard fingerings for notes around high E, and, depending on the situation, to try using overblown fingerings (like playing high D open and high Eb as just the throat G# key.)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-03-18 18:43
Thanks, maxopf. I've been pretty much doing what your teacher suggests. I have a friend who plays a lot of Eb clarinet who told me last night that it shouldn't be necessary to use too many 'fake' fingerings, however.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-18 21:40
In a local semi-pro wind ensemble that I play in, our E-flat player seems to do quite well using an R13 with a Fobes extension and Lomax MP. Haven't talked to her in depth to see how often fake fingerings are used. But, she plays well in tune and I love the sound of the little beast! The band would not be the same if we were missing this instrument!
If I could afford a decent one, I'd play an E-flat again in one of our community bands in this area ...
Anyone any ideas on the best/cheapest?
Tom
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Author: dmbard21
Date: 2015-03-20 04:43
I play on a Amati ACL 261 Intermediate Eb Soprano Clarinet Standard. I always get comments on how I sound just like a Bb Clarinet. I love playing the Eb over everything else. I have played on a few other Eb's but I love my little Eefer. I would recommend it to any one who wants to get one. It is not the cheapest but it is not really super expensive. I know the price has gone up a lot since I purchased mine a few years ago for only $600 USD and now it is going for $1369 USD. But that is my little bit about it.
Dean
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