 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-04-20 05:07
Hey All,
Let's lay out our opinions on key work and key finishes. For instance; personally I prefer nickel key work. Silver feels sticky to me. I have played some horns with tarnished sliver keys and that felt better to me.
There has been countless posts on keeping your silver keys from tarnishing but do any of you keep your keys with some tarnish on them purposely? I think I might if I had silver keys.
What say ye?
My Best,
jv
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-04-20 09:28
I trialed a Concerto with nickel plated keys. I really liked it's sound, except that the keys were slippery. The slipperiness was exacerbated by the "stiffness" of the key action. So, I got one to trial with silver keys (while I held on to the other). The keys felt better, but it didn't sound as good as the one with nickel plate. My R-13 has nickel plated keys, and it is not a problem.
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Author: Mindy
Date: 2001-04-20 11:13
I really like silver-plated keys. I have never really tried nickel-plated but I did see my teachers, she has nickel, and the finish was coming off so I didn't like that. But if you like nickel-plated go for it
Mindy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-20 12:31
I think so, but having nickel (e.g. as a component of stainless steel) through a lip or navel piercing is very different from handling it with the hardened skin of the fingers.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-20 12:38
When nickel does tarnish it is particularly unsightly, rough, and very difficult to remove. Some unusual things tarnish it, e.g. polyurethane varnish fumes, which once turned nickel plated items dull white overnight for me. I suspect the fumes from some of the modern case construction materials may tarnish nickel. On the other hand the manufacturer of Grassi flutes once blamed the pitting of silver plating on fumes from a glue used to make the case.
Anybody who has fingers that perspire readily will find nickel plating very slippery indeed.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-20 14:17
Although my hands are quite dry, I still find nickel-plated keys slippery and prefer silver-plated (or, better yet, solid nickel-silver) keys.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-04-20 16:03
I like best, my gold-plated R-13, that I use for jazz, for its "feel" and proven durability of finish. ( We all know, of course, that the plating used on the key-work has no relation to the basic sound of the instrument--its just for "looks" like Pete Fountains bell diamonds) All of the rest of my clarinets are silver-plated and tarnishing seems only to be a problem with the ones that I do not play regularily. I do, on my most-used, silver-plated Concertos, frequently wipe the silver keys off with a dry, soft cloth to preserve the finish. They are now ten-years old and doing pretty good. However, if I could afford to have them gold-plated as well, I would not hestitate. You all might be surprised at how much attention my gold-plated R-13 gets from the general public and other musicians. It's a fact that, when all else is equal, it is the most "attractvely packaged" product that gets sold, or promoted, or hired. We need to look good as well as sound good! Off the subject, but just something for us all to remember. As usual, good clarineting.....and smile at your audience once in a while.
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-04-20 20:57
I have an old Series 10 full boehm with nickel plated keys. While I do like playing it, it made me decide to never buy another clarinet with nickel plated keys. My hands do not perspire a great deal so my fingers do not slip, but I still find the smoothness irritating. It feels cold to me. I remember reading years ago, in the NY Times, an article about the manufacture of synthetic ivory and how the latest materials created were developed to mimic (on a microscopic level) the "rough" texture of ivory because the previously used synthetic materials (required by the ivory ban) received many complaints from pianists of being too slippery. It had never occurred to me until now that nickel and silver might have different surface textures and that may account for the more slippery feel of the nickel. Are there any metallurgists or chemists out there who know if this is the reason for the difference in feel?
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Author: joseph o'kelly
Date: 2001-04-20 21:38
I think that some keys need nickle keys to slide better (such as the top A key) but I have found that nickle wears quicker than silver. My Bb has silver keys and my A has nickle. My Bb is older and used much more often yet the plating has no wear while my A seems to be wearing at a fast rate.
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-04-20 21:50
My clarinet keys are all non-skid; it must be the layer of cream cheese and bagel crumbs that keeps things just right for fast arpeggiation.
I love the bright look of nickel keys, but they're just too slick in any sort of humid environment. (It's probably just flop-sweat!)
anji
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-04-21 00:51
Silver plated keys definitely provide a better grip than nickel. Silver is also prettier.
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Author: Erin
Date: 2001-04-21 04:04
You know, I never thought about it until I read this thread. My Bb is silver, and my A is nickel. My hands don't sweat at all, but I still feel like I have a better grip on the silver. I agree, cold is a good way to describe it.
Interestingly, neither of my clarinets has tarnished after a couple of years of heavy use, but and old one with nickel keys tarnished and flaked quickly.
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-04-21 04:57
I have to agree with David that solid nickel silver would be the be all end all for me. I am surprised at the land slide for silver however. Since I play nickel keys I can not relate to the "cold feeling" some describe. Quite he opposite. I love the very warm temperature that my keys maintain while playing. I also like the smoothness. I posed the question for fun and really expected closer to a 50/50 response. I guess the manufacturers of high quality horns do know their market. ;~)
Best,
jv
P.S. Anji, hahahhahhahhahha lol hahhaha
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-21 06:59
Just to check... We are, aren't we, talking about solid nickel-silver keys (i.e. cupronickel, i.e. approx 80% copper & 20% nickel & 0% silver, i.e. the industry almost universal norm) plated with either nickel or silver. I cannot see how there could be a temperature difference based on the very thin plating. A difference in feel on account of different friction characteristics - yes, and a difference in appearance - yes... But temperature??? Can somebody explain?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-21 12:06
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> ... A difference in feel on account of different friction
> characteristics - yes, and a difference in appearance - yes...
> But temperature??? Can somebody explain?
Whichever material has the higher coefficient of heat transfer will feel colder even though it has the same measured temperature. That is because it will draw heat out of your hand faster than the one with the lower coefficient. This makes it feel colder even though they would be the same.
Here is a real simple example. Take a piece of metal and a piece of cloth and lay them on the table. Leave them there long enough that you know they are the same temperature. Then touch them. The metal will "feel colder" than the cloth.
In other words we are not dealing with temperature but the rate of heat transfer from one object to another. When the body feels heat being drawn out of it, the brain translates this sensation into "cold." The faster the rate, the "colder" it feels.
Note: I used to develop heat transfer equipment (radiators, oil coolers, etc) in a couple of my previous jobs.
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Author: Erica
Date: 2001-04-22 01:13
Speaking of key finishes, is there any sure-fire way to tell if you have nickle or silver plated keys? I'm not entirely sure about my instrument, it's about 28 yrs old, and the original owner is no longer able to be contacted.
Thanks,
Erica
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-22 11:54
Silver tarnishes in shades of gray to black.
Nickel tarnishes in brownish shades but takes a very long time to do so.
If the clarinet has been sitting around for a long time untouched and shows little or no tarnish, then it is probably nickel.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-22 12:13
Yes, of course, Dee. Assume the same base metal. Pure silver as a plating is an excellent heat conductor so it does not restrict the rate at which the base metal heat sink cools (or warms in a hot environment) the fingers. On the other hand the nickel plating does restrict the heat transfer.
But assuming the keys are normally at a lower temperature than the fingers this would suggest that silver plated keys would feel colder.
I know that a solid silver flute is a most uncomfortable heat sink, quickly draining heat from the fingers when the flute is played in very cold air.
Erica you could test for silver by touching an inconspicuous spot with with a finger contaminated with garden "lime sulfur". If it quickly turns dark grey or black you have silver. I suggest doing a quick cleaning and polishing job after this! Lime sulphur is used by silversmiths to give silver a black appearance.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-04-23 18:06
Gordon -
Many (maybe even most) people are mildly allergic to nickel. The way to tell is to use a piece of adhesive tape and tape a nickel coin to your forearm (for guys, a place with no hair). Leave it on for 4 or 5 days, then take it off.
Wait for a few minutes, and then look for a red circle on your skin around the edge of where the coin was. If you have it, you should avoid nickel in any form. While nickel reactions are worst where the skin is soft or there is a piercing (as for earrings), anyone can get the reaction, even from nickel plated clarinet keys. Also, the reaction gets worse with time, so if you start to get irritation, you should switch away from nickel as soon as possible.
Count me as a hater of nickel and a lover of silver. I slide around too much on nickel, and like Bill and several others, I don't like the feel. I like best of all the feel of unplated German silver keys, which the pre-R-13 Buffets had.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-23 21:31
Ken Shaw wrote:
>
> Gordon -
>
> Many (maybe even most) people are mildly allergic to nickel.
> The way to tell is to use a piece of adhesive tape and tape a
> nickel coin to your forearm (for guys, a place with no hair).
> Leave it on for 4 or 5 days, then take it off.
>
> Wait for a few minutes, and then look for a red circle on your
> skin around the edge of where the coin was. If you have it,
> you should avoid nickel in any form. While nickel reactions
> are worst where the skin is soft or there is a piercing (as for
> earrings), anyone can get the reaction, even from nickel plated
> clarinet keys. Also, the reaction gets worse with time, so if
> you start to get irritation, you should switch away from nickel
> as soon as possible.
>
> Count me as a hater of nickel and a lover of silver. I slide
> around too much on nickel, and like Bill and several others, I
> don't like the feel. I like best of all the feel of unplated
> German silver keys, which the pre-R-13 Buffets had.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Ken Shaw
Except that German silver is a nickel alloy (over 90% nickel I believe) containing *NO* silver. My Leblanc Symphonie II also has the unplated German silver keys
and I rather like them too.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-24 14:39
From http://www.bartleby.com/65/ge/Germansi.html
"German silver: name for various alloys of copper, zinc, and nickel, sometimes also containing lead and tin. They were originally named for their silver-white color, but use of the term silver is now prohibited for alloys not containing that metal. German silver varies in composition, the percentage of the three elements ranging approximately as follows: copper, from 50% to 61.6%; zinc, from 19% to 17.2%; nickel, from 30% to 21.1%."
Alternative names are nickel silver, or more accurately cupronickel. It is the base material that is silver plated for cutlery and presentation cups with EPNS stamped on them. EPNS = Electroplated Nickel Silver.
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