 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-08 04:29
Is tenon binding a common issue with Leblanc Bliss clarinets? A few days ago I noticed that one of the clarinetists in my school band section didn't have her bridge key lined up (apparently she didn't know to do that?), and when I went to show her how to line it up properly, I realized there was no way she could've lined it up anyways because the tenon was binding like crazy and wouldn't rotate freely. She says all of the tenons on the instrument are like that; I told her to bring it into the shop and have the tenons turned down asap to avoid getting stuck joints/cracks. She says she broke in the instrument, so I'm ruling out warpage due to an improper break-in. Has anyone else had this experience?
Post Edited (2015-02-08 04:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-02-08 04:43
This is usually a Buffet thing. I believe that tenons expand with some forms of cork grease. I talked to someone else at Buffet who dismissed the idea. But I know they can swell with some treatments. I had a customer who was given two older Selmer professional clarinets. There was already Vaseline (petroleum jelly)in the case so he used it as cork grease. The tenons had swelled so much it could hardly be assembled. When I was at repair school (many years ago), I overhauled my old Thibouville. First, I shrank the socket rings so they were snug. Then I gave it an oil immersion bath (something I haven't done since). You guessed it, binding tenons.
I now sell cork grease that is much "stiffer" than average. Micro is good as well, but not many wholesalers carry it. Maybe Omar can chime in.
Steve Ocone
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: alanporter
Date: 2015-02-08 05:44
A temporary treatment for loose tenons due to cork wear, is to coat the cork with Vaseline petroleum jelly and bring a hot metal plate (like a domestic iron) close to it. This causes the cork to swell. Good as a temporary fix but does not last long.
Maybe in maxopf's case the cork swelled without the heat.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-08 06:58
It's not loose tenons that are the issue here due to compressed or worn corks, but the wooden tenon rings binding in the sockets. Swollen corks won't cause tenons to bind in their sockets unless the instrument is left assembled and any water that collects in the sockets remains there unchecked. But for an instrument to become difficult to assemble and take apart, the usual suspect is binding tenon rings.
No amount of cork grease will cure this and the only real cure is to have the tenon rings skimmed to remove just enough wood so the tenons fit in the sockets without binding nor rocking, so scrape a little off at a time and check the fit. Then inspect the tenon rings for binding caused by high spots which will look shiny against the dull freshly scraped wood and then scrape the high spots. Then check again and repeat until the tenon fits perfectly.
As for clarinets prone to this, the usual suspects for me when I worked at a music shop were wooden clarinets made by Buffet and Leblanc (which were the most popular in my area) within the first few months of ownership and are therefore under warranty.
Binding tenons on new clarinets aren't something that will sort itself out in time, so they will need to be addressed as soon as they bind instead of leaving and putting up with them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-08 07:32
I was recently told by my local tech that letting the clarinet rest unassembled for a couple weeks sometimes mitigates this issue without having to resort to taking wood off.
I have a new student with a Selmer he bought new several months before he started studying with me that started having this issue at the junction between the upper joint and barrel. I passed along the tech's advice but the mom "freaked out" (student's words) and took the instrument in to have wood removed. Was my tech mistaken?
Removing wood obviously can't be undone, so I was in favor of caution. He hadn't broken in the instrument properly. I suspect that contributed to the problem, which is now starting on another tenon.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-08 07:33
The binding is wood-on-wood between the end of the tenon and the bottom of the socket. You should tell your student to have it fixed immediately, because it's sure to cause a crack at the top of the upper joint.
Kal Opperman never took down the end of the tenon, but always reamed out the bottom of the socket. If you take down the tenon, then no other barrel will fit.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-02-08 07:52
As others said, it's usually the wood swelling that is causing this.
>> letting the clarinet rest unassembled for a couple weeks sometimes mitigates this issue without having to resort to taking wood off. <<
Not really. It can depend on how bad it is. If it's borderline, it sometimes happens that it feels fine when assembling, then it's bad when trying to disassemble. Or it might still be the next day (depending on how borderline it was).
If weather doesn't change in a way that affects it, just waiting a couple of weeks won't make any long terms difference. If weather does change in a way that affects this (which is not that uncommon e.g. the joint get stuck only certain times of the year) then not playing the clarinet for a couple of weeks still won't make a difference.
>> The binding is wood-on-wood between the end of the tenon and the bottom of the socket. <<
It is actually much more common to happen between the bottom of the tenon and the top of the socket and almost always because of the tenon being too wide at the bottom. I'd say that was the case about 95% or more of the stuck/resistant joints I've seen.
>> because it's sure to cause a crack at the top of the upper joint. <<
Definitely not sure. Although it might, I think I saw very few cases where a stuck/resistant joint cracked because of that. Only a couple and they were very stuck and abused (contantly left assembled without swabing too and even those were a minority that cracked).
>> If you take down the tenon, then no other barrel will fit. <<
Unless the problem is the tenon, which is common, and most/all other barrels are also resistant. Or when the problem joint is not the barrel joint (also very common).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-08 07:53
The current problem my student has is where the upper and lower joints come together. The binding prevents the tenon from going all the way into the socket.
Ken, either I am misunderstanding what you wrote, or what you describe is not the case here since the tenon is not reaching the bottom of the socket before the binding occurs.
Also, as far as I can tell you are saying that resting the instrument is not a wise course of action. I can certainly understand that continuing to play it as is is not. But why would simply not playing it for a couple of weeks be dangerous?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-08 08:41
nellsonic wrote:
> But why
> would simply not playing it for a couple of weeks be dangerous?
Maybe not dangerous, but she may not have an instrument to play for all that time if she doesn't own a spare.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-08 14:04
Thanks, guys. I always appreciate learning something useful. The only thing better than teaching is learing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-02-09 08:23
>> Ken, either I am misunderstanding what you wrote, or what you describe is not the case here since the tenon is not reaching the bottom of the socket before the binding occurs. <<
This clarinet probably has what is by far the most common reason for resistant or stuck joints. See my previous post.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-09 08:58
Here in central Arkansas, it's hot and humid in the summer, and as my wooden instruments adapt to the climate, I've had binding tenons, and had to have them turned down slightly.
The Bliss instruments had major issues in northern Arkansas (it get's pretty cold in the winter) with cracking ... fairly high percentages. That was a few years ago ... one enthusiastic clarinetist/band director really loved those clarinets, but abandoned her recommendation after all the problems ...
Of course, this must have been a temporary issue, Leblanc should have improved the wood quality ...
I tried a Bliss out ... nice, beautiful, well made ... but didn't fit my hands very well ...
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-09 17:44
TomS wrote:
> Of course, this must have been a temporary issue, Leblanc
> should have improved the wood quality ...
>
Easier said than done, I suspect. From what I read, the declining availability of top quality blackwood has been a concern for many years. I think it's one of the reasons for the development of Greenline - the quality of the wood isn't an issue after it has been ground up.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-09 22:56
Well, in respect to the Bliss clarinets ... they may not have unproved upon the raw wood but improved in their selection, seasoning, storage and treatment.
One thing that Backun does is to partially drill the bore (undersized) of the wood billets before further machining is done ... and let the wood rest/age/season for a while longer.
They could have also got their hands on a batch of bad Blackwood, too ... ? Pollution plays a big factor, I think.
I mostly prefer hard rubber for clarinets, for a number of reasons, but still want wood to be available because it is beautiful and despite quality and stability issues, has some important and desirable features for some ...
Does anyone have any hard data on hardwoods other than Blackwood, versus available quality and long term stability? Could we get around quality issues by just emphasizing the use of Cocobolo or Rosewood or Persimmon?
Just seems that if we sent a man to the moon in 1969, we could solve the Grenadilla problems nowadays ... aren't there plantations?
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-10 00:16
I read some time ago about attempts to grow African Blackwood commercially on the French or Spanish Mediterranean coast.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-10 02:36
Yeah ... about time to keep a crop growing, and with friendly geographical and political considerations.
Backun implies that their source of wood is high quality and sustainable. Cool.
I friend told me that Loree and Buffet bought up all the really, really good Grenadilla, years ago. This guy was a true genius and constructed Baroque period woodwinds and had a shed full of various hardwoods for his projects. I am sure he collected material for decades.
I guess I am well off original subject of "tenon binding" ...
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-10 03:02
The problem with grenadilla is it's a slow growing gnarly shrub rather than a straight trunked tree with perfectly straight grain, so getting decent sized billets with as few to no imperfections is a problem. I think the minimum age of a grenadilla 'tree' to grow to a decent size is around 80 years, but it still needs to be processed and the billets selected for good quality joints.
What Howarth and others do during the wood turning process is to first turn the square billets into cylinders and leave them to rest for a long while before drilling the pilot hole through the entire length of the billet, then leave that to rest before reaming the bore undersized, then leave that to rest before turning the outside shape, then again more rest until the toneholes and pillar holes are drilled and the bore reamed to its final size and in that time the pillars are fitted and the keywork is mounted. Then it has its final time to rest before being finished into a fully playable instrument. As several batches of joints are all in different stages of being turned from a square billet to a finished joint, there's a steady stream of joints working their way to becoming a finished instrument so there aren't any periods where there aren't any instruments to work on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-11 00:27
I suspected at least 60 years of growth ... well, no time like the present to plant a crop ...
Yes ... incremental machining with rest periods in between ... makes sense.
Similar considerations with other suitable hardwoods?
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-11 00:38
Hi,
I recently had the same issue with my new Yamaha CS Custom. Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds, using a small scraper, handled it just a few minutes just as Chris P. described above.
"the real cure is to have the tenon rings skimmed to remove just enough wood so the tenons fit in the sockets without binding nor rocking, so scrape a little off at a time and check the fit. Then inspect the tenon rings for binding caused by high spots which will look shiny against the dull freshly scraped wood and then scrape the high spots. Then check again and repeat until the tenon fits perfectly."
During these last few months of winter weather here in OH, I watched the fit on the tenon. No problem as I have kept a moisturizer (small pill bottle with a damp sponge) in the case.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
