 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-02-08 13:57
Kia ora,
A certain vendor on a certain auction site (based in the USA) keeps on advertising 2nd hand clarinets as....
"handpicked by a top University Professor & Artist/Soloist."
In the past, being quite interested in an instrument advertised (and knowing people in the same city/state who would be able to play test for me) I enquired to the vendor as to WHO it was who had handpicked the clarinet. And the vendor was unwilling to tell me. My suggestion that this unwillingness was due to the fact that they may be lying or exagerating was not well received. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't say WHO it is, you shouldn't be using it as advertising. If you are unwilling to be frank and honest, then don't get pissed off if someone suggests you may be lying.
Comments and/or opinions welcome, am I just being an old grump?
dn
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-08 17:09
Theory 3: the "top Professor or Artist" wishes to remain anonymous, for whatever reason, maybe just to make it clear that "picking" doesn't mean "endorsing".
I dunno - for me, ads like these are just "warm air", directed at insecure people, the same who would prefer instant coffee brand X over brand Y just because, say, Kenny G advertises it.
--
Ben
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-02-08 17:10
Your question seems quite reasonable and the fact that they wouldn't answer is suspect.
I have a business relationship with a person who hand picks clarinets every month at Buffet. Sometimes she goes looking for certain models and comes back empty handed, not finding anything that meets her standards.
She doesn't choose clarinets based on what she would like as a clarinet player. She selects a variety so that she is better able to meet the players preferences.
If someone sends you a handpicked instrument it doesn't mean it would be a great instrument for you.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2015-02-08 21:53)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-08 20:29
"handpicked by a top University Professor & Artist/Soloist."
Let's look at this from yet another angle.
If the artist, heck artists here, publically disclosed as such, were Stanley Drucker, Julian Bliss, and Michelle Zukovsky, picking only clarinets the 3 could agree on, the bottom line would still be that you'd be strongly advised to try the instrument before purchase anyway.
Yes, clearly, anything these 3 artists agree upon would be, at the very least, a corectly functioning clarinet, if not one of brilliance. My point here is certainly not one that seeks to disparage these virtuosos, but to say that the instrument has to be right for you. Oh, and expect to pay a considerable amount above fair market value for clarinets approved by all 3.
Try before you buy from reputable sources. I'd never buy a clarinet, sight unseen, unless it had a trial policy and a reputable name, like Ridenour.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-02-08 20:41
There is a tremendous amount of junk, false advertising, and outright fraud on that particular auction site.
The 1st listing I pulled up just now is for a "professional clarinet", only $70.
Brand new even, reeds, ligature, mouthpiece, case, reed guard. It even comes with a screwdriver to keep it in top shape.
Such a deal. Personally, I'd grind it up in a wood chipper and use it to fill potholes.
The wonder is they can manufacture that junk, ship it 1/2 way across the planet, and still sell it for such a low price, and still make a profit. The wholesale cost is probably in the $20 range.
There are some legitimate sellers on the auction site - but - you have to look at their items carefully. The number of sellers of junk seem to far outweigh professional sellers. There are a lot of counterfeit Buffet, Selmer, and VanDoren products out there as well.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2015-02-08 21:16)
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-02-08 23:09
- I am a professional clarinet player and certainly understand the issues relating to someone else selecting an instrument, this is not my issue.
- I am not really concerned with "Professional clarinet for $70", if someone is stupid enough to think they are buying anything of real quality I feel sorry for them.
My issue is solely with the dealer (who seems to be reasonably well known) using "top University Professor & Artist/Soloist" in their advertising but being unwilling to reveal who it is, and treating my request for more information as unreasonable.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-08 23:49
This seller's habit of using five fonts in three different colors and four different sizes could raise some aversion too... It tells me I am not at Sotheby's.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2015-02-09 02:47
I think it perfectly reasonable for me (or someone) to desire the assistance of an expert in picking an instrument. We are not all professionals, nor able to audition dozens of instruments. Nor, even given the chance to try several clarinets, to know what will work out best. Additionally, what works well for a beginner might prove to be not the best choice as skills improve. And if we get three to try out, we often go to our teachers to help choose among them. "What works best for me might not be best for you" may well be appropriate advice for a professional but poor advice to an amateur about to shell out >$1,000.
I for one would pay something extra for a device judged to be above par by somebody (preferably not anonymous) who knows what s/he is doing.
We all can drive, even test drive, a car but may also want to look at Consumer Reports for help in evaluating aspects of a car that are not apparent in a 1/2 hour test drive. Ditto $3K large screen TVs, refrigerators, etc.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-02-09 03:40
Yes all very well (and I have myself previously bought clarinets "hand picked" for myself and students), but my issue is, how do you feel about the IDENTITY of the person doing the hand picking being regarded as top secret?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-02-09 04:18
To get a little perspective on this issue, we should look at all the many clarinetists who are willing to let everyone know that they will help players select good instruments. Consider Walt Grabner, Heather and Alcides Rodriquez, Lisa Canning and Greg Smith, Dan Gilbert, Chad Burrow, and Caroline Hartig, Mark Nuccio, and Robert DiLutis, to name a few.
They openly advertise their selection services with no problem. So, why then would anyone offering similar services not also be willing to disclose their name?
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-02-09 06:12
My current B flat clarinet (which I am playing as I sit at the computer), Buffet Festival, was handpicked by Frank Celata at the factory in Paris- for his colleague in the SSO, Chris Tingay. I then bought it 2nd hand- knowing that I loved Franks favourite clarinet (which I had played in the previous year) gave me confidence that we had similar taste and priorities where clarinets were concerned. I have on two other times bought clarinets hand picked by famous players known to me- both of which were very fine clarinets that just didn't quite suite me (though, I'd buy one of them back if I had the chance!). Oh then there was the R13 that Richie Hawley played, I passed over it and a friend bought it from him- 10 years later I played it again and was "I must have been crazy, this is a GOOD clarinet", so taste can change!
@ Seabreeze- YES, nice to know I'm not being unreasonably grumpy about this...
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-09 06:17
To comment simply and directly, I agree with you completely that if the vendor is going to use "hand selected by..." as an advertising hook, the person who selected the instruments should be identified, if not in the ad then verbally for an inquiring potential buyer.
You can wonder what the person's criteria were for his or her selections and for what purpose the selections were being made, but for me none of that matters until after I know whose criteria and purpose we're talking about.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-02-09 08:31
>> but my issue is, how do you feel about the IDENTITY of the person doing the hand picking being regarded as top secret? <<
No big deal. If they don't want the store to use their name, that's fine. If the store decided not to use their name, maybe to not put them in a position without specifically agreeing to it, no problem.
I wouldn't borther asking who it was, but if I did and they didn't want to say, I'd just let it go.
From this to accussing them of lying...
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-02-09 13:18
If the store decided not to use their name because the artist involved didn't want their name disclosed, then they shouldn't make the claim- they CAN make the claim in their advertising but I consider this morally wrong as the artist has said they don't wish to be identified and are therefore not happy to be associated with advertising for the business and the clarinet involved...
Clarnibass obviously has different morals, but I consider this an untrustworthy thing for a vendor to do, and when dealing on the internet trust is paramount. It's the internet version of not looking me in the eye and an indication of a flawed values on the vendors part.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-09 17:26
Not sure I agree that the status "hand-picked" must imply that the identity of "by whom" is revealed.
The status tells that the instrument was a winner over one or more other instruments.
If the instrument is bad the buyer can argue that it doesn't match the description.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-02-09 19:17
In one regard, I totally agree with you, Donald. Any business that makes a claim that it then refuses to let me verify and evaluate independently won't get my trust or my business, even if the claim happens to be true. If their "expert" isn't willing to stand behind his/her work or the store doesn't trust its customers well enough to disclose who the expert is, why should you trust them? For me, for a claim to have any value, it has to be reliable in both senses of the the word -- it has to be true and I have to believe it's true. IMNSHO, this store's claim is worthless at best and possibly deceiving at worst. For all I know, they could be describing (almost) a popular adjunct professor of accounting at a local junior college who occasionally subs in a recreational community orchestra and once played the slow movement of the Mendelssohn sonata for his dog.
On the other hand, I think you've misread Nitai. If this seller is unable/unwilling to identify their expert, I think their intent determines whether advertising they have one is unethical. If they really have an expert evaluating the clarinets, it may be questionable business practice to advertise that fact but probably not unethical. If their intent is to deceive, then it's clearly unethical. In either case, calling them a liar is not likely to generate a Kumbaya response. And you don't know which case it is so, as Nitai says, probably best to let it go... and take your business elsewhere.
MOO.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2015-02-09 19:18)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-02-09 19:30
>> Clarnibass obviously has different morals <<
Please don't be rude.
If I saw that advertisement I probably wouldn't buy from them. I try to avoid over-advertised stuff in general, if I can. I consider that if someone feel they need to resort to that, hmm... why...
I also try to stay especially objective, because people often ask me about instruments.
So actually I agree with you.
However, I wouldn't accuse them of lying and argue with them about it. If it bothered me that much I just wouldn't recommend them, for example, if someone asks where to buy from.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-09 20:16
Donald:
You initially asked if you were being a grump.
I don't think so..."frustrated" seems a more appropriate term, and we can argue until the end of time not only if such label is true, be it it is justified.
The seller seems to have product you want--assuming of course the advertising is accurate. Maybe I'm wrong. And if I'm right, maybe you woudn't care as much if making similar claims selling "flutes" (or any instrument for the sake of argument that is one you don't desire to purchase.) Or maybe you would, because con artists drive you mad. If the latter, I "get you." You're not alone.
I've been there. I think I can empathize with you. I've wanted to do business with sellers who won't divluge things reasonable people would consider very fair of me to ask, and otherwise relevant to purchase. I've even found out at times, after the sale, that their claims were true (so why not back them up, I'd say to myself.)
Worse, I've delt with con artists and those who fradulently induce sale. And like you, I don't like that they take advantage of anyone, not the least of which me or mine, or my friends.
As Mr. Kissinger has already well pointed out, terms like "handpicked by a top University Professor & Artist/Soloist," are open to interpretation. To take matters further, the individual Mr. Kissinger describes could have picked the clarinets when new, not now.
All this said, I think we need to emphasize a couple of points, likely not unknown.
* Con artists will exist contemporaneously with mankind. Buyer beware.
* We are free to walk away from making a purchase.
* The auction site I'm thinking of has a rating system that will catch up with this seller if he cons people even only occasionally, and provides certain rights to victims of fraud.
* All business transactions come with risk.
* Sellers are free to not back up truthful claims. I don't think it's good business, and I don't think it's nice.
* Finally, sometimes honest sellers act in weird ways because the have dealt with con artists and difficult buyers at the other end of the transaction, not the least of which competing sellers pretending to be buyers, so as to acquire marketing intelligence.
One quick anecdote and I'm off my soapbox. I once bought the parts from a discontinued vacuume on ebay. The seller advertised it as such--just parts--and as a result, seeing as nothing was working, I got a great price.
I thanked the seller for being so honest. His parts helped fix 2 models of the same vacuume I owned.
His reply was most cordial, thankful that 1 buyer (me) had actually read the auction. The two prior buyers who returned the merchandise didn't understand why the vacuume he sold didn't work.
====
This isn't you Donald. Your seller is a jerk. But jerks and con artists are part of life.
Post Edited (2015-02-09 20:22)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-02-11 07:15
Given that the referenced seller is dealing in used instruments, I wonder what happens to the ones, if any, that get rejected. Maybe the "expert" is simply selecting CSOs from a random selection of CSOs and non-CSOs.
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