 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bernie Turcotte
Date: 1999-04-15 03:02
I own and play a Selmer-Henri Selmer Bb Clt (1953)(P5156) and a Selmer Centered Tone Bb Clt (1956)(Q3066). I play mostly Jazz but do some classical playing of standard clt repertoire. Both horns have been frequently overhauled by competent pros and my favorite of the two horns is the --Henri Selmer... I have matched that with a WW K9 and RicoJazz 4 reed and I am happy with the pitch, balance and sound throughout the octaves.
Now the Centered Tone Horn (with articulated G sharp)is a different story. When I bought it (used from an estate purchase) I was told by some of the pros in town here that this was the ultimate Jazz Player's horn........well..... over the last 20 years or so I have repeatedly gone back to that horn to try and discover the marvellous jazz attributes that it is supposed to have and I have been hugely unsuccessful. I find that the third leger line Eb (finger only) is hoplessly flat along with the Fsharp and the forked Bb below that, impossible to get....the spacing of the bottom three holes causes finger placement problems for me that I don't have on my HS..the whole upper register above G top line is hard to play in tune.....I think it's time to give up on this sucker. Everytime I go back to my HS it always sounds so much nicer, better and it is easier to play in tune throughout all the ranges........As for the CT horn...It's probably me....right ? What am I doing wrong? Is this horn really as good as these cultist fans of the horn believe ? If this CT horn doesn't get any more friendly I'm going to make it into a lamp or sell it to one of those adoring followers of the CT persuasion if I can find one.
Would anyone care to comment on any of the above ? Does anyone know anything about either of these horns ? I bought both of these horns when I was a kid and I don't know much about them really.
Is the HS considered a decent pro clarinet ? What about the Centered Tone horn ? There are clarinetists I know who swear by these CT horns......and not at them like I do. Would anyone care to comment who knows something about these instruments........?
Bernie
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Author: J.Butler
Date: 1999-04-15 15:41
Bernie,
I have a Selmer Centered Tone (Q series)that I adore lovingly. I don't know what the deal is, except mine doesn't have the articulated G# key. I know the extra keys are sometimes hard to get used to because everything fits tighter. Is the Bb/F# key opening up at a correct height? My clarientseems to play in tune with itself and the Peterson tuner. You might try different mouthpiece reed combinations to see if that helps. It could be possible you have an instrument that does not want to behave in the altissimo. Since you are obviously and experienced performer I won't go into the pedagogical aspects. For comparison, I also have an old thirties Balanced Tone that I am restoring, and a Henri Selmer (L series) coming in (from the late 40's). I bought it off eBay and will overhaul it when it arrives. After I get the BT and HS fixed up I'll compare the three. I'll post my observations. However if you do decide to "off" the CT, I would be interested.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-04-15 15:48
Hi Bernie - I have H S P2226 , as you said , its a fine horn for all the playing I do. I was told this one was purchased in France, imported here with the logos scarred but otherwise good [after replacing a cracked bell]. As best I can tell its equal in quality with my LeBlanc L7 70-80's vintage. For jazz, I use a BG [signature] mp and a Wells for classical-religious. Cant comment re: the CT. Don
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Author: dj
Date: 1999-04-15 16:49
I could be wrong, but I think that the Centered Tone was the clarinet of choice for Benny Goodman in the 1950's. That could be the reason behind all the buzz around it being a jazz horn. I am a jazz player and until recently played on a Selmer Series 9 that had a nice, bright sound, but also played out of tune especially in the low register (very sharp). I just purchased a Buffet R13 and haven't had the same problems. I guess it's just a preference.
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Author: Bill
Date: 1999-04-15 19:37
dj:
Don't say that about the Series 9's! No, I just sent mine in for an overhaul. I haven't played it since purchasing (used, in a junk shop, $50). It's S4875 (1961). I've heard almost 100% BAD about Series 9's yet I still think I can give it a fair try. Goodman's recording of the weber concerto was with a Series 9--I thought it a particularly bad recording and tone.
Bill.
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Author: Mark P.
Date: 1999-04-15 23:03
I've played a Series 9* since 1971 on everything from classical to jazz. 'Course the 9* is a poly cylindrical as opposed to the regular 9 that was the traditional big bore cylinder.
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Author: Bill
Date: 1999-04-16 15:24
I have (or will have, when it's back from technician) the traditional Series 9. It's funny but on the one hand I was thrilled to find this clarinet (especially for 50 bucks) and on the other hand I have real doubts that I'll ever enjoy it. Everything I've read indicates this model (and possibly a lot of Selmers before the Series 10 era) simply doesn't play in tune. I guess I'm hoping something fantastic will come out of it that compensates. Funny the fascination with these old Selmers (I have the disease myself)--sometimes I totally forget "Why?". Flexibility? Tone?
--Bill Fogle.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-04-16 16:48
Bill wrote:
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I have (or will have, when it's back from technician) the traditional Series 9. It's funny but on the one hand I was thrilled to find this clarinet (especially for 50 bucks) and on the other hand I have real doubts that I'll ever enjoy it. Everything I've read indicates this model (and possibly a lot of Selmers before the Series 10 era) simply doesn't play in tune. I guess I'm hoping something fantastic will come out of it that compensates. Funny the fascination with these old Selmers (I have the disease myself)--sometimes I totally forget "Why?". Flexibility? Tone?
--Bill Fogle.
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Try it before jumping to conclusions. It might suit you anyway. Actually no clarinet (even brand new ones with the latest technical innovations) are 100% in tune throughout their range. Of course today's horns are much better but when you check against a tuner, you will subconsciously adjust to get the needle centered so it makes it more difficult to tell how close the horn is to being in tune naturally. Its better to have someone else look at the meter while you play if you want to check the horn. You go to the pre-1950s designs (in any brand) and there is even more variation in tuning accuracy.
Why the fascination with Selmers? Who knows. Of course several well known musicians did use them, musicians that are/were widely known by name (such as Goodman) to people who do not play any instruments.
As I understand it, the large bore designs give a big, full, bold sound that can be difficult to achieve on the smaller bore designs.
In other words don't discount it based solely on other people's opinions. It was a pro horn in it's day. For you it could possibly be fine. Everyone is different. If we weren't, there wouldn't be the different designs available.
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Author: Bill
Date: 1999-04-16 19:47
Bore-wise nothing can top my Boosey & Hawkes 1010. At 15.2 this is (was) the largest bore ever given to a soprano clarinet (thus spake Mr. O. Lee Gibson). The B&H has probably (R-3 included) the finest "tone" of any instrument I have. So, these old Selmers can't gain their character solely from their bore size--perhaps the lack of fraising? The B&H is heavily fraised. Well, I'll have to post my reactions here when I get the instrument back from the shop. The repairman played it for me briefly and the tone was reall bright. So I'm in for something "completely different."
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Author: Bernie
Date: 1999-04-17 15:13
Thank you for all the responses to my post. This is a great Forum and I have enjoyed scanning all of the threads here......good stuff generally.
However I am still a little confused about something. Let me put it this way. ...as a few more questions.
People have spoken about series 9 and series 10 selmers etc. Does that refer to any of my horns ? I play a Henri Selmer bought in the 50's P5156. That's the horn I really like. With the WW K9 reed and lig set up I use I can achieve with relatively minor adjusting a good balance of tone throughout the octaves and the intonation can be manipulated with a minimum of stress over the octaves. The overall quality of sound particularly in the upper register (anything above G top line and up the next octave and a half) does have a "brightish" sound ....a remark that I think other posters have said was a trait of Selmers.....I don't mind that as a matter of fact I like it.
I guess to get that Eddie Daniels, François Houle covered and non-bright upper register sound one would have to go to a newer horn like a Buffet model ....right with corresponding set-up adjustments ?.....I still have in my head a tonal concept that ranges from Pee Wee Russell, Ed Hall to Kenny Daverne to Ken Peplowski......I think my HS can take me there...if I keep working on it.
Then I also have and play more and more infrequently A selmer Centered Tone Clarinet bought in the 50.s Q3066
This horn is just too high maintenance for me with regards to balanced tone and balanced pitch especially in the upper part. We just don't get along very well......so far any way.
Are either of the two horns mentioned above Series 9 or 10 selmers ?
Because the CT horn has a larger bore does that automatically mean that the higher notes will be more difficult or require more intense adjusting to play in tune?
Is my HS P5156 considered or was it considered in those days to be a pro-horn ?
Non sequitar.......out of the blue.... Has anyone ever heard of jazz players playing in small B Bop, swing or Free ensembles using A clarinets ?
Bernie
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-04-17 15:24
Bernie wrote:
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...However I am still a little confused about something. Let me put it this way. ...as a few more questions.
People have spoken about series 9 and series 10 selmers etc. Does that refer to any of my horns ...
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Your instruments precede the series 9 and series 10 versions. However, I don't know what the acoustical differences are.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-04-17 17:58
Bernie wrote:
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I guess to get that Eddie Daniels, François Houle covered and non-bright upper register sound one would have to go to a newer horn like a Buffet model
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Considering Eddie plays a Leblanc ... :^)
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Author: Bill
Date: 1999-04-19 13:39
Bernie/others,
I know from this Web site (R. Morgan's history of U.S. Selmer) that Selmer serial nunmbers are not grouped or identified with model names. If I had to bet hard-earned money, I'd say that Selmer had a number of models and that if your horn is not marked "Center Tone" then it is NOT a CT. Unless (here it gets weird) the instrument is a "European delivery" clarinet (i.e., not for the American market). Shortly before and during the '40s and '50s there were the "Model 55"s and "Radio Improved"s also. My understanding from a knowledgeable man who bought my Selmer Albert System is that Selmer promoted the model identifications specifically for clarinets exported to America. --Bill.
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Author: Bernie
Date: 1999-04-19 16:39
Hi Mark:
Has Daniels switched to Leblanc recently ? On the LP liner notes for To Bird with Love...it states..Eddie exclusively plays Buffet Clarinets. On the CD Liner notes for Benny Rides Again....it states Eddie Daniels plays Buffet Crampon Clarinets and Vandoren reeds and the Ediie Daniels mouthpiece.
When did the change to Leblanc occur and can you recommend a CD where he states that he uses the Leblanc throughout....I would really like to compare the tonal differences.....is there any story here..........regarding why the need to switch......was it just money ?...or was there actually a musical and/or an artistic/aesthetic reason for jumping to Leblanc ? I am not a big ED fan I am just mildly curious....
Cheers
Bernie
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 1999-04-19 19:51
Bernie wrote:
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When did the change to Leblanc occur and can you recommend a CD where he states that he uses the Leblanc throughout....I would really like to compare the tonal differences.....is there any story here..........regarding why the need to switch......was it just money ?...or was there actually a musical and/or an artistic/aesthetic reason for jumping to Leblanc ? I am not a big ED fan I am just mildly curious....
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Bernie,
I don't know the answer. He was playing a Leblanc last year at ClarinetFest (Francois Kloc of Buffet was re-padding it, which made the whole thing look mildly comical). I _believe_ (but I'm not sure) he used Leblanc the year before, too.
No idea if it had anything to do with money; I've heard that the performers aren't compensated all that well for their recommending different brands, at least in the clarinet field - but - I don't really know (no one's ever asked me to be a rep :^)
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-04-20 01:32
Mark Charette, Webmaster wrote:
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Bernie wrote:
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When did the change to Leblanc occur and can you recommend a CD where he states that he uses the Leblanc throughout....I would really like to compare the tonal differences.....is there any story here..........regarding why the need to switch......was it just money ?...or was there actually a musical and/or an artistic/aesthetic reason for jumping to Leblanc ? I am not a big ED fan I am just mildly curious....
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Bernie,
I don't know the answer. He was playing a Leblanc last year at ClarinetFest (Francois Kloc of Buffet was re-padding it, which made the whole thing look mildly comical). I _believe_ (but I'm not sure) he used Leblanc the year before, too.
No idea if it had anything to do with money; I've heard that the performers aren't compensated all that well for their recommending different brands, at least in the clarinet field - but - I don't really know (no one's ever asked me to be a rep :^)
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He may have switched back and forth also. I definitely recall seeing ads in the clarinet magazine (maybe 6 to 8 years ago) where he is listed as one of Leblanc's endorsers.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-04-23 16:42
Dee wrote:
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He (Eddie Daniels) may have switched back and forth also. I definitely recall seeing ads in the clarinet magazine (maybe 6 to 8 years ago) where he is listed as one of Leblanc's endorsers.
Dee -
ED has definitely switched back and forth with his endorsements. He endorsed Buffet for many years. Then he switched to Yamaha and was quoted as saying wonderful things about the instruments. At the Clarinet Congress in Oberlin 10 or 12 years ago, he gave a lecture-demonstration, doing some amazing playing, and said that Yamaha was far out ahead of the other brands. Nevertheless, people in the know told me he hated the Yamahas and played on his Buffets on recordings.
A few years later, he switched again, this time to Leblanc. Francoic Kloc is an amazing repairman, but it's still surprising that he would work on a Leblanc. I doubt that he would do it for anyone other than ED or another player at that level, and the story also casts doubt on ED's commitment to Leblanc.
It's not uncommon for a well known player to endorse a product without using it. Daniel Bonade endorsed Leblanc maybe 40 years ago, and I was told he never had one in his hands except for the publicity shot. Vibrator reeds have to be the worst ever made, and yet they advertised Buddy de Franco as saying "I always use Vibrator reeds. They're the best."
ED has to make a living too. Even at his level, you are not in the lap of luxury and need to pick up extra money any way you can.
I remember that in the late 60s, Rod Laver endorsed a particular brand of tennis racket, which he in fact never used. I read that he went so far as to have a veneer made with that brand's logo and applied to his regular racket. Laver was the greatest player ever, and he was at his peak at that time, yet even at the very top, he needed, or at least wanted, the endorsement money. And didn't Michael Jordan get gigged for wearing shoes that weren't the ones he endorsed?
Endorsements are one of the smaller compromises you have to make. Sure, it creates bad Karma, and in the next life you may come back as a cockroach. But how many of us would resist? It's a small transgression, rather like copying the page of noodling at the beginning of Daphnis and Chloe, which is not in any excerpt book, yet is called for on most auditions, and which every serious player has a technically illegal copy of. (Sorry, Mark. It's just not that heinous. Jaywalking is illegal too.)
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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