 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-22 20:08
I have read post after post talking about the different kinds of clarinets available and most of the time the people talking about them are saying how that particular clarinet sounds this way or that way. Is there really that big of a difference in the way the different clarinets sound? You would think that if you played a particular note on clarinet A, clarinet B, clarinet C it would sound the same (excluding the very cleaply made chinese junk clarinets). If I am playing an intermediate Selmer and you are playing a top of the line LeBlanc can you really hear that much difference assuming both clarinets are in top playing condition?
I started thinking about the clarinet section of an orchestra. You would think if there are 10 different players with 10 different clarnet brands and all 10 sound a little bit different it would make for a unpleasant sound. When I play a B on my intermediate clarinet shouldn't it sound like the B on a professional instrument? A B is a B after all! If it sounds too different it wouln't be a B anymore would it!
The same with mouthpieces. I can see that a certain mouthpiece might be easier to blow than another one but shouldn't the sound be basically the same?
And then I get a tad confused about the difference between a jazz sounding clarinet and a classical sounding clarinet. A clarinet is supposed to sound like a clarinet! Again, I think about all these different sounding horns playing in the same orchestra and it being chaos.
Here is a simplier question, if we did a blind test between a student horn and a top end horn, both being in perfect playing condition, would you be able to hear a difference and pick out which horn was which??
Shelly
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Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-22 20:09
One more thing,
I could also add, is there a difference in sound between a wood and a plastic clarinet (remember, BLIND test!)
Shelly <--------------- who apparently hasn't been exposed to enough different kinds of clarinets to tell a difference!
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-04-22 21:30
Shelly,
I'm FAR from an expert, but I can only equate your question to singing. Most people have different VOICES from each other, but they blend very nicely together. Different instruments have different voicing. It doesn't make one worse or better than another, but different and that's okay. The real question is: what do YOU want to sound like? Which products produce the tone that describes you and the type of player you are?
One thing to be careful is to confuse tone quality with pitch. You can have a dark tone quality and still play sharp (which is high). This is why all B's on the clarinet should sound "the same". Pitch is something all musicians should work on together and be in tune together. Tone quality is an individual thing.
There's my $0.02 FWIW.
David Kinder
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-04-22 21:45
I forgot to mention something about playing on pro and student horns. When I was in high school, I was told that a professional would rather have a student horn with a top quality mouthpiece than a pro horn with a "student" mouthpiece. Would we be able to tell the difference between the horns? probably not, because it's all about the player.
Could we tell between two horns with the same mouthpiece setups? it depends how well trained our ears are, but then again, many ears have been fooled before!
I personally think it's all about how the player wants to be heard as a clarinetist. Then work on yourself, the clarinet, mouthpiece, etc. to get as close to the way you want to sound.
I would train my ears by listening to some music in the field that I want to study. I've got a CD by Larry Combs with some orchestral excerpts. I love his tone. I try to model it as best as I can. Now, if I wanted to study Jazz clarineting, then I'd study more of Eddie Daniels and Buddy DeFranco and Benny Goodman. Then my ears train the way I play the clarinet. I hope this makes sense, because sometimes I feel like I'm rambling.
I look forward to hearing more responses to your questions.
David Kinder
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Author: Eoin
Date: 2001-04-22 22:09
Shelly, you say that if two different clarinets play the same note, B for example, they should both sound the same, because if one is very different from the other, it is not a B anymore. You are confusing the pitch with the timbre, also called tone quality.
Sound is a vibration of the air. The pitch of the sound is the frequency of the vibration, that is, the number of vibrations per second. The timbre or tone quality is the shape of the vibration. Vibrations are not pure sine waves, they can be square, triangular or all sorts of other shapes. Different clarinets will have different shaped vibrations and so will sound different even when they are playing the same note.
In general in orchestras, there is a preferred sound for the clarinets. A new player will be encouraged to cultivate this particular sound to blend with the other clarinets. There is a German Sound, a French sound and so on. These distinctive sounds are best understood by listening to the orchestras, as descriptive terms can be very confusing. One person's "bright" can be another person's "dark".
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-04-22 22:22
Shelly,
I've been asking this question since last Sep. when I first started music (the clarinet at age 62).
Also, I've posted this comment before (similar to yours - the Pepsi Challenge I call it).
# 1. I beleive that the lay person (as an audience) would not be able to tell the difference between a plastic and a top of the line pro clarinet (all things being equal) if the same pro player were playing each clarinet (sight-unseen of course).
# 2. I believe it is how you feel about yourself and the confidence you build by the relationship you have with *your* instrument that makes the difference. Thereby, effecting your playing and resulting in whether you *sound* good or bad to an audience.
# 3. I do believe there will/can be an accoustical difference in instruments - even of the same genre. But I doubt that much of this is discernable by the human ear - only by audio equipment. Again, assuming all things being equal.
Perhaps it is the harmonic(s) that is heard that makes the difference in the sound from one horn to another, while the *note* may be the same. I'm not a musician nor am I an accoustician (sp?) but I have been an audience most of my life and in an orchestoral arrangement, with the intire *wind* instrument section playing, I very seldom even pick out a clarinet, much less tell if it is plastic or wood, or whose it is. Anyway this is oly the opinion (and I am very opinionated) of an old fool. I think that whatever you *think* makes your music sound good, is the proper instrument(s) for you.
This topic has been discussed ad-infinitem here so you might do a search and see that there are as many opinions as there are musicians.
I hope this doesn't confuse you more but I don't think there is a *real* answer.
~ jerry
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Author: Mike Hancock
Date: 2001-04-22 23:09
Shelly, and others.......
I'm sorry that I don't have any answers, just more questions.......
I currently play a "no name" wooden clarinet that appears to be somewhat better than "student" quality. I am considering the purchase of a "better" instrument, and I understand, from reading posts here that I need to try out enough instruments to find the one I want to buy. So here are my questions:
Will I be able to detect differences between two or more clarinets of the same manufacturer and model?
Will I be able to detect differences between two or more "equivalent" models from different manufacturers?
For play testing, I would use the mouthpiece, reed, and ligature from my current instrument. I would also plan to play against a tuner to verify intonation over my own range of ability.
Mike Hancock
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-04-22 23:14
I've noticed differences between the same make/model horn. I used the same mouthpiece. I did not adjust or remove the reed and ligature when changing horns.
I know that the differences heard by a player, may not be heard by the audience.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-04-22 23:29
A very good discussion of a highly "subjective" , not objective, subject above! I heard a concert this PM and some beautiful clarinet passages by a great friend on his Selmer Recital, which he prefers to his Signature! While I cant compare my tone-color now to his, I feel mine is "brighter" and will go thru my mouthpieces and several cls to see if I can improve. I guess we all strive for improvement, so the suggestion above to listen carefully to both classics and jazz , and then try to match [what you wish] is very good. Interested in reading more. Don
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-04-23 00:31
I play many different kinds of clarinets. (Play testing after fixing them.) I can tell you that you may not be able to tell a difference in tone quality or timbre from one to the next as a listener, but I certainly can tell a difference in resistance and how it sounds to me as a performer.
John
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-04-23 00:52
Not being a "professional" this just MHO. I have a reconditioned wooden "Robert Malerne." The reconditioning and mouthpiece refacing were done by one of our Sneezy repair specialists. This thread reads to me, again IMHO, that what I am going to "sound" like is totally a subjective judgment call weighed against the bias of the teacher/professor/conductor. This one, or that one may not like Robert Malerne's; this one or that one may not like my mouthpiece(s). I agree they can fault me on technique and capability but how can they fault me on my sound when what I sound like seems to be IN THEIR HEADS? They have their hearing attuned to one specific sound. To me it reads that if I don't play the current "in fashion" equipment, an R-13 with a specialized barrrel, certain mouthpiece etc, obviously I am going to sound bad in their eyes. Not true?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-04-23 00:58
Bob Arney wrote:
>
> To me it
> reads that if I don't play the current "in fashion" equipment,
> an R-13 with a specialized barrrel, certain mouthpiece etc,
> obviously I am going to sound bad in their eyes. Not true?
Not true. You'll find all sorts of clarinets being played by pros. Look at the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Buffet, Yamaha, and Leblanc are played by the different members. I know I'm not going to argue with Larry Comb's choice of a Leblanc ...
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-04-23 04:26
I really wanted to do a 1 word post to your title question, "yes!" but...
Can the "average" untrained listener tell the difference... I suspect most can, but would not use specific terms for the sound. They would say that the pro horn sounded richer, or clearer or nicer etc.
I play variously my own 32 year old Selmer Signet Special (a very decent wood intermediate) my son's relatively new R-13, and his beater marching band Bundy. I respect the Bundy for taking a lickin and still tickin (I paid $150 used 7 years ago and have only replaced a few pads!) and the Selmer is an old friend, but... to play the Buffet is like driving a Corvette instead of my truck.
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Author: Karel Vahala
Date: 2001-04-23 05:14
To take the argument a little further into the realm of the ridiculous, if a B is always a B and that's all there is to it, there would be no difference between this note played on a violin, trombone, flute or a clarinet. The differences we hear are the differences in the tonal quality of the note, not just the note itself; that is also why a professional instrument with a good set-up is more pleasing to the ear than a chinese student one. ( I think). Karel.
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Author: Fred R
Date: 2001-04-23 06:28
Get out your guns you will all want to shoot me. I am no expert on clarinet acoustics, but my profession is sales and marketing. For everyone (manufacturer, middleman and sales outlet) to get an acceptable profit from the sale of an instrument, that pro-line clarinet which costs 2k would cost approx. $600-$700 to manufacture. I am not saying we are being gouged in anyway, besides current costs such as materials, labor and general day to day expenses such as utilities etc, there is a great amount of money to be recouped from investments like machinery and research and development. So I have always wondered why
1: If Buffets have the market why doesn’t Leblanc or Selmer copy the basic design, or vice versa?
2: Why should we have to play test identical instruments? Considering a limited clientele and the steep competition these companies must have rigorous Quality Control depts.
3: If these instruments are so individual why don’t we hear about a “Red Clarinet” of acoustical perfection that Stolzman would pay a million dollars for.
I remember when I was younger and would try and blame my inability to hit a certain interval or my lack of tone on my student Evette. My instructor would tell me "the first place to look for something wrong with your instrument is in the mirror" he would then take my clarinet play the passage with a gorgeous tone, then hand it back to me saying “Try again. Half speed. 5 in a row”.
A few years ago I was disappointed after purchasing my current and first wood clarinet when I discovered it wasn’t one of Leblancs’ current top models. This despite the fact that I had tried it with four other models (2 Selmers, a Yamaha and a Buffet) and loved it. I have since reminded myself of that fact and realize I was, and am, influenced by peer opinion and advertising. What bothers me is when I hear (or read posts from) young players who feel they cannot progress or even learn without having that R-13. Is all of our “model talk” sending the wrong message?
Artie Shaw, in the Jazz series, described our instrument as “a hunk of wood with a lot of clumsy keys attached”. So I too have to wonder how much is real, or is my ego leading me down a garden path, planted by advertising and lovingly tended to by peer pressure and opinion, but still not really going anywhere.
Sorry so long but I have been thinking about this for a long time.
Fred R
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-23 13:12
Personally I find the differences in sound between well set-up clarinets (not junk, but including good plastic ones) to be minor. The differences between players on the same instrument seem far greater by comparison.
However I would add that I think there may be huge individual differences between people in their ability to perceive tone differences. Consider the taste discernment of a wine maker or connoiseur. Consider that my piano technician friend listens distinctly to the overtones in a note and their relative volume and tuning to the fundamental. To him every note on the clarinet has a different tone.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-04-23 15:23
I hand-select clarinets for players of all levels--beginning to pro--and because I get to try out all kinds and all brands, I've developed a pretty good ear for the various tonal qualities of each brand. But, tone is a personal (or conductor) preference and each player must decide for himself/herself which instrument best suits his/her needs.
My personal preference for the best sounding orchestral clarinet on the planet is the same as Larry Combs--the Leblanc Opus. I've tried most of the orchestral clarinets on the market and it just out performs them all every time in every situation. My second favorite is also a Leblanc--the rosewood Symphonie VII. I can tell a difference in the tone of the two clarinets. The Opus is made from a wonderful quality Grenadilla wood and has a much darker and more powerful tone than the Symphonie VII. The Symphonie VII, on the other hand, has a beautiful, sweet, soaring quality that I sometimes prefer on a certain solo.
For big band and jazz, I use a Leblanc LL because it has a bigger bore and has a huge dark sound that is slightly different to the above mentioned instruments. Selmers (some) also have that big, Goodmanish sound.
A fantastic clarinetist can play anything and it will sound wonderful. Most of the time, to the listener, it's hard to tell the difference unless you have trained your ear to hear. I can sit outside the sound booth waiting my turn to play test an instrument and be pretty acurate about what brand and model clarinet someone is trying out. But let a pro player who knows how to get around the "quirks" of each clarinet come in and play 5 different instruments and I wouldn't be able to tell you which was which.
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2001-04-23 16:46
From my experience, yes there is a difference.
I upgraded from a no-name french wooden student clarinet to a Buffet E11. I could not believe the difference in the tone I got out of the Buffet. Even my husband could tell the difference (he's a guitarist, perhaps not fair to call him a lay-person).
Not long after I switched clarinets, I changed from the stock mouthpiece to a Vandoren B45. Again, I experienced a noticeable difference in tone.
This weekend I purchased a Vandoren Optimum ligature. WOW!
I cannot express the difference in my tone, particularly in the upper registers.
In short, I believe that the clarinet makes a difference, but I'm beginning to believe that the reed, mouthpiece, lig, barrel setup is even more important. I'm satisfied enough at this time with my current combination that I'm letting go the dream of a Leblanc Concerto -- for the time being, anyway! 
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-04-23 19:06
Shelly -
Basically, you are right. A professional player will sound pretty much the same on any clarinet, particularly if he/she uses his/her own pro mouthpiece, and particularly with a pro mouthpiece and barrel. Many Marcellus students have said, here and on the Klarinet board, that when he played their instrument, mouthpiece and reed, he sounded exactly the same as he did on his own heavily customized R-13s, his Kaspar mouthpiece and carefully adjusted reeds.
A good musician with a good ear can tell the difference between instruments being played by someone else. My wife is one of those people, and she can pick out the difference every time when I asker her to listen as I play my 1972 Buffet R-13, my 1925 pre-R-13 Buffet and my keep-it-by-the-computer-to-blow-on Pedler. However, if she's not paying close attention, she doesn't notice.
The difference from one instrument to another is mainly how comfortable you feel playing it. When my nephew was starting out, I put my mouthpiece and barrel on his Bundy, and it sounded really good. When I went back to my R-13, though, I felt much better. I could hear a difference, and certainly feel a difference, much more than any listener. Also, on my R-13 I had much more choice in the kind of sound I made. The Bundy let me play well in one way. The pro instrument let me play well in many different ways.
When I was doing commercial art work, I could draw a very good circle with a $1 school compass. Still, I used a $50 Kern compass, because it felt better and was easier to get things just right with. While the difference in clarinets is not that extreme, it's the same thing.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-04-23 21:34
If you're talking about an orchestral setting, you will be lucky to pick out the clarinets at all...let alone tell which model is in use.
I despair of playing in a junior-league or amateur symphony given the overwhelming volume produced by the hord of strings!
In a more intimate setting (If Dixieland may be consider such) Kenny Davern plays a beatup rubber Pruefer with Valentino pads, and he commnds the stage.
Buddy DeFranco plays a more traditional rig and has his own voice.
My personal fav (same haircut), Pete Fountain, has a big-bore horn and a unique voice.
In the orchestral setting, it must take enough back pressure to pop your cuff links just to be heard. If they're in tune, they're hard to pick out. If they're out of tune, or off on an unscheduled solo it is another matter entirely.
I think the quality of an instrument is manifest in how long the player wants to keep going.
anji
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-04-24 02:30
Every one can recognize a Strad from a student type violin. Same is true for any instruments. People with good ears can recognize the superiority of records compared with CDs. Sony people know this fact and now they are developing 'Super CD' system.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-25 14:22
I serviced a new Howarth today, getting rid of the binding of several pivot tubes. It was a very, very nice instrument to play and has a high standard of manufacture (better to have the pivots made too tight than sloppy!).
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