 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mddds
Date: 2015-01-25 10:12
hi all,
would appreciate some advice on taking on the oehler system. I know this all depends on alot of factors so maybe I can give you some information on me.
1. I'm not a professional player but not a beginner - should we call it advanced amateur?
2. Currently playing in several community orchestras for fun
3. This was mostly brought on by curiosity. Or perhaps midlife crisis? When it comes to the clarinet, I'm more apt to trying new things.
4. I did research some old threads which discussed the specifics of playing but never found any that discussed reasons or motives specifically for moving into another system.
5. If I do like it and adapt the system, I'm not averse to investing in new equipment and switching out my Bb, A, Eb, and Basset A in the future.
some questions:
Would it be in any ways detrimental to current Boehm embouchure or technique? Understandably I would have to relearn a lot of passages.
Which clarinets would you recommend (or Avoid)? Ideally, I'd like to buy one that is decent - equivalent to a professional model but nothing astromonical.
Are there professional players who routinely use both systems interchangeably? Does anybody out there have in their double case, say, a Bb Boehm and A Oehler?
So ,there appears to be a Yahama 657 and Clemens Wurlitzer on the ebay circuit currently. Are these decent instruments? Decent prices? Are these equivalent to an r-13 or Prestige?
I read that the C Wurlitzers are not the same quality as H Wurlitzers.
BTW, I am aware of the dangers of buying a clarinet without trial, let alone on a system I'm unfamiliar with.
any constructive feedback would be appreciated!
thanks!
Post Edited (2015-01-25 10:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-25 17:49
I have a Yamaha 657-24 which is a great instrument - it's the same as a 657 but lacks the low E-F correction key, but I got it at a good price brand new.
Clemens Wurlitzers might be alright, but their build quality is variable so you're best trying the instrument before buying to make sure all is well with it. Yamaha has very stringent quality control, so they won't put anything out on sale unless it has passed that.
There are some players on here that play both systems, even orchestral players that use Oehlers for playing Brahms and the like for that special sound.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-25 22:52
There is a LOT to say on the topic but, the most important is just a word of advice from one who did this for 13 years with some success and some failure.
You DO NOT have the "infrastructure" or support system around you to smooth out problems that come up. For example, if you have a fingering question you can turn to the guy next to you and he can say, "Oh, I do such and such." Or you go to a teacher and he is comfortable suggesting certain ways to play a standard excerpt. Or you need a new mouthpiece because the one you are using isn't quite right and you want to try out a bunch of them at a nearby store. Or you need an overhaul and you want to go to a local repairman who knows just what to do and has all the right sized pads in stock.
NONE of that will be available to you.
Now I did my turn on the Wurlitzers when the internet was pretty new (no Clarinet Bulletin Board), but still you have to consider how much harder it will be to have 'help' when you need it.
The fingering is insidious because there is just enough 'overlap' to make it frustrating. And the actual mouthpiece/reed combo (the traditional German one that is) is different and needs a reworking of what you are used to. Some really good players finally gave in and retrofitted French mouthpieces to their Wurlitzers, but this compromises the sound which I would think is a big part of your motivation.
There are some newer horns out there that don't cost an arm and a leg (the non custom brands). I will be looking at a Uebel in a few weeks that will come in considerably under the $10,000 US dollars for a single Wurlitzer.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-26 02:55
I am not good with the internet thingy, but it seems from the banner on you post that you are in the Los Angeles area. You could possibly take some lessons with Michelle Zukowski of the L.A. Philharmonic. Years ago she was not to amenable to giving out advice to those (Me, that is) interested in pursuing the Oehler system, but if you already have one (when you contact her) you may have a better shot at getting some valuable lessons pointing you in the right directions (and she plays FULL ON German system Wurlitzers).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-01-26 06:36
It's taken me four or five years to get comfortable on Oehler system clarinets (soprano and bass) after a lifetime playing Boehm, but I can finally play either equally well (or badly!) and switch between them at will with only the occasional bit of fingering confusion. I'm no virtuoso, and in my fifties so well past the age of quick learning, so this should be a bit of encouragement to anyone who is thinking of trying to learn the Oehler fingering system (which, honestly, is not that different). If you already play oboe, you'll find that that the Oehler fingerings which differ from Boehm are basically oboe fingerings (or very similar).
As a practical matter there's no particular reason (other factors aside) to favor one fingering system over the other; some passages are slightly easier or smoother on Boehm and some on Oehler. The real reason to know both (and the reason I learned Oehler) is the increased variety of available instruments to play. I learned Oehler specifically because I was offered a beautiful Oehler-system bass clarinet, which was very different acoustically from any Boehm-system bass clarinet I had ever seen and so if I wanted to play this neat old bass, I had no choice but to learn the fingerings. Very glad I did so; this has also opened the door for me to acquire (on the cheap) several nice Oehler-system soprano clarinets which I would have otherwise not been able to use.
The mouthpiece issue is an entirely separate subject that has been discussed before in several threads (and on SaxOnTheWeb as well), and really has nothing to do with the difference in the two fingering systems.
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Author: mddds
Date: 2015-01-26 11:16
Hi Paul,
sorry, I should have mentioned these things in the earlier post....
I live (relatively) near LA so I do have a access to a great repairman - who I believe does play an Oehler himself.
regarding Michele, I did think of asking her though, but it's been a while since I've seen her for lessons. 2 new kids will tie up one's schedule. Also, I think I changed my attitude (alot) towards the clarinet since then.
Perhaps i'll ask her - I think I need some lessons.
She already knows that I play a Boehm.
I guess it would be better to consult w her before embarking on any of this.
Btw, Did she give you a reason why she didn't want to teach the Oehler?
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-01-26 13:41
Just a small detail, but last thing I heard Michelle Zukovsky had abandoned her Wurlitzer clarinets and was using instruments made by Schwenk und Seggelke (and I mean litterally "heard"- I was on the periphery of a conversation Michelle Zukovsky had with various clarinet players/makers).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-26 16:55
My "Zukovski moment" was just a brief "hello" after a concert in Chicago, so she was probably more interested in going back to the hotel for a well deserved rest. I took enough time to compliment her wonderful performance and ended by asking how to acquire the instruments (it was only after a Netherlands Wind Ensemble concert that one of the players was able to provide a contact address). She said, and I quote, "Stick with your Buffets, they are easier."
I would like to add to the mouthpiece reference, that it IS a critical portion of the equation to the acoustic of the instrument. Of course, if you haunt German websites, you'll see that they currently make available mouthpieces for Germans that have shorter, more French style lays yet are still acoustically German (though I'm sure there is still a compromise involved). The description will say something to the affect that 'you don't have to have as much mouthpiece in your mouth.'
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: BobW
Date: 2015-01-26 20:29
Besides Ebay, where do you purchase an Oehler system clarinet in the U.S.A. ?
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2015-01-26 20:34
One question for the OP is what is about the Oehler system that appeals to you? Just the challenge of learning something new or is it the sound that these can make compared to a french Buffet for example.
One compromise is for you to look at the Reform-Boehm instruments. They are a hybrid of german style bore, though not exactly, and the french key work. They are capable of getting you very close the german system experience without the need to learn new fingerings.
Yamaha, Leitner & Kraus, Wurlitzer and S&S all make these style instruments.
Rob
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-27 08:02
The US distributer of Wurlitzer is a poster to this board and should be able to suggest some method of trying out one of these horns. another suggestion is "F. Arthur Uebel" clarinets are making inroads to the US as we speak. Any dealers (or soon to be dealers) should be able arrange purchase of their Oehler system clarinet. And, er, we all have the internet. Start hunting German websites where there are a plethora of used and new horns available for purchase: For example
http://www.holzblaeser.com/produkte/b1636/vollausgestattete-und-professionelle-instrumente.html?v=1897_573_1570_1571
Oh, and there is NO affiliation between Uebel and Buffet.....how exciting!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: mddds
Date: 2015-01-27 12:44
hi rob,
this is a great question.
for me, I think it's several things. I do love the sound - different than that of my Buffets. There is also the idea of having something different than 98% of people around me. It might sound silly and rebellious, but I think that is a very important factor (at least for me). It will certainly be a challenge but I'm up for it.
I also think there is something to be said about trying new things to understand them and gain some perspective. Just like in Star Wars, I think there was someone who said that in order to appreciate the whole picture, you had to appreciate both paths, not just one (dogmatic) view. (I think he turned out to be a villain in the end).
and don't worry, I'm not equating the Oehler system to the Dark side of the force(!)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2015-01-27 17:31
Amati make a line of 'german system' clarinets including a full Oehler, that were (maybe still are) available through retailers such as WWBW. These are of reasonable quality and not too expensive.
You won't need a full Oehler to try out the fingering, something with five or even four rings and fewer keys will let you experience the fingering system; you just won't have all the alternative fingerings but if you stick with it you can always get a better instrument with the full key set later. You could even start out on an Albert clarinet.
There are many excellent makers, some mentioned above. You could also check out Adler, Hammerschmidt and Keilwerth (Richard).
One aspect of german system horns is that they have a lot more adjustments and you will need a good tech at some point to keep it in good playing order.
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Author: mddds
Date: 2015-01-28 00:32
thanks for your input, all.
I know that it shouldn't matter, but I should also mention that I've had the same clarinets since 1984 (Bb) and 1987 (A).
It was suggested by a professional that (at some point) I should consider replacing the Bb, as she thought it may need replacement. I bought it new when I was a little kid when we were in France.
My dad was sweating bullets at the store while buying his 10 year old son a professional model clarinet, not knowing if I'd quit two months later.
Althought i got it in France, it doesn't seem to be a European clarinet: the SN does not start w an F.
He was amazed that I still keep it up - and that I still have the same horn after 31 years.
...the point being, that i may be approaching a crossroad if i decide to change the current horn.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-01-28 02:55
Not all European Buffets have an F prefix, I believe it only signifies that an instrument is tuned marginally higher (say 442) which would be particularly relevant in Germany but many countries still play at 440 and more especially did so 30 years back.
31 years for an instrument that has been looked after and especially not beaten to death by heavy professional use is quite normal. Why does your pro suggest it might need changing? My Leblanc LLs are now about to enter their 55th year and look quite likely to outlast me!
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Author: mddds
Date: 2015-01-28 08:45
norman,
thanks for the clarification on the serial number.
it was suggested that the Bb was "blown out."
I didn't know what that meant at the time, so I looked it up.
I still can't tell the difference, but know that I only play it once a week and the rest of the time I gravitate towards the A clarinets.
The Bb is very open and bright in contrast to the A's I have. Perhaps the sales associate in France, I think, picked it out for a 10yo student - no wait, scholar. A previous instructor hated the term "student" and preferred "scholar."
-CK
Post Edited (2015-01-28 09:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-28 19:12
Attachment: selmerctfullboehm1.jpg (491k)
"Blown out" is a myth - don't believe for a second that your clarinets are blown out if anyone tells you that. That's a ploy to make you buy something you don't need, so stick to what you have and have them overhauled which will bring them back to top playing condition, plus they'll be better than new as they're still your clarinets.
My main clarinet nowadays is a 1958 Selmer Centered Tone that was in a really bad way when I got it, but I stripped it down and rebuilt it and it's perhaps the best clarinet I have and couldn't want for better.
See attached photo of how it looks now since rebuilt and also it's pictured in these links what it was like when I first got it:
2nd from the right: http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/01.jpg
Closeup: http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/05.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2015-01-28 19:36
I like your reasons for trying out the Oehlers and switching.
Some other resources for you are:
www.thomann.de is a great site for instruments, mouthpieces and all things related to German instruments. They have great service and I receive my shipments from them is a short amount of time.
One thing to think about is that there are many "subschools" of sound in the German tradition of playing.
they are, as I understand it:
1. Berlin School, best demonstrated by players like Karl leister, Georg Zeretske and Walther Seyfart
2. Detmold school ( my name, not theirs) this is characterized by players like
Sabine Meyer, Reinhold Wehle and Dieter Klocker etc.
3. Vienna School as name suggests are german system players from that city or mindset. Peter Schmidl, Ernst Ottensamer are great examples of this playing.
these are rough categories and are in no way meant to be comprehensive or absolute.
I mention all of this because in looking for equipment you may want to consider what your sound goals are. Some equipment will more readily get a particular result.
Hope this info is useful.
Rob
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-12-15 22:53
JUST chiming in on this post..did you switch or did getting reeds, service and mouthpieces slow some of this process down. I think the Albert Clarinet was the closest north americans came to the german system and that was quite some time ago. .
please let us know your results!
David Dow
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Author: mddds
Date: 2016-12-16 00:53
hi david,
thanks for bringing this up again.
i took the plunge and purchased a set of used oehlers (2012) (house of Herbert).
the instruments arrived in November of 2015.
however due to other ongoing orchestra commitments, i really could not dedicate time to playing them until June 2016!
due to my day job, i have about 1h (more or less) to play each day. against expert advice, i began the ultra slow transition, rather than dive in 100%.
the transition is slow, largely because i don't have much time to play - as well as the floundering between the two systems.
i found that the German Legeres (2.75) play very well, so i decided to stick to plastic.
our December concert was first all-oehler affair.
i've had no problems with the orchestra playing A=440. the instruments are tuned to 442-443. the set came with 5 barrels and 2 P&S Zoom barrels, so i'm pretty much set.
so far, the experience has been great.
The sound is wonderful.
no regrets!
-CK
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