 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: eitan123
Date: 2015-01-22 13:55
I"m currently at 11th grade and live outside of the US. My clarinet teacher told me that i need to upgrade my clarinet (ycl 250 yamaha) and recommended buying a clarinet in the US because it is cheaper there.
i wanted to ask what clarinet should i buy with a budget of 2000$
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-01-22 17:46
yamaha ycl 650
ycl 450
buffet e12 france
you can find a good used R13 under 2K
Ridenour is another option but your teacher will not likely approve it
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-22 18:24
"Ridenour is another option but your teacher will not likely approve it."
Maybe, maybe not. But it happens, for reasons that have nothing to do with clarinet sound, playability, or value--- Ridenour clarinets excel at all 3. So sad and unfair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN48wlBC-xo
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: eitan123
Date: 2015-01-22 20:35
thanks for the advice, i do have though a few questions.
do you advice on buying a used r13 clarinet without testing?
and why would my teacher have a problem with Ridenour?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-22 21:31
* Never, IMHO buy a clarinet, let alone an R13 without testing, baring one, a Ridenour, other than his G1.
* I have to assume the adversion to Ridenour clarinets originating from the poster's assumption of lack of familiarity on the part of your teacher with them.
* Need I tell you, noting your IP address, clarinet integrates into many aspects of Judiasm and the Jewish State. You would be shocked to find how many Israelis know of, play, and support Tom Ridenour's work.
Ridenour's trial policy, combined with the consistency of his instruments, largely due IMHO to the fact that their made of hard rubber, and the fact that Tom checks them all before leaving the shop, make for high probablity that you'll end up with a solid instrument. Hard rubber can be machined more precisely than grenadilla wood, and doesn't change shape. This is why I'd shy away from Tom's G1 (G for Grenadilla) model. It's not that I think Tom or this instrument second rate, but my belief that grenadilla clarinets should not be bought site unseen, given their inherent variablilty, particularly in your case, given the high return shipping costs of international service.
Tom's instruments sound wonderful. Abandon any idea that the material a clarinet is made out of alone determines the beauty of its sound. It is craftsmanship, and of course the player, that are the 2 most important aspects of its sound.
It's my opinion that Ridenour's are the best value. It is also my opinion that they play remarkably in tune, better than many R13s. But is also my opinion, for better or worse, that Tom's instruments, on the whole, offer more resistance than your typical R13. This is neither good nor bad. It's not only a matter of taste, but as Tom explains on his website, all part of his design strategy in holding pitch, color and shape of sound with changes in volume.
Own own Buffets and Ridenours and am affiliated with neither company.
Post Edited (2015-01-22 22:35)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-22 21:31
My impression is that R13's vary a lot and that a poorer example may not be a good choice. I will leave it to others to comment on how well a "bad" R13 might compare to other possibilities. Finding a good one might require the help of an expert- there are places that sell preselected examples at premium prices.
Perhaps cyclopathic and I overstate the possibility of problems with acceptance of Ridenour clarinets. Maybe it would be no big deal, but there are places it's an issue. In the video I posted... Tom tells sad sad stories and good stories. I suggest you not prejudge either your teacher(s) or Ridenour products. The main issues are- 1) Ridenour clarinets are hard rubber, not grenadilla (except the G1, but not all players have expressed preference for the G1 over the Libertas or even the rubber 576BC), and 2) Ridenour is not an R13, and for some that's the end of the story, even before giving a Ridenour horn a fair shot.
You can read and read all you want, believe what you want, but your opinion ought to matter the most after you actually play some clarinets. Your teacher's opinion does matter also, I agree, and I hope you're in a good situation. Not everybody is.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2015-01-23 06:23
This is an extremely personal query. There are many, many makes and models of instruments and I suggest reading through the exhaustive answers by using the "Search" tool above and absorbing some of the suggestions by excellent professional players that have been made in years gone by. The suggestions above are also largely good, although I'm surprised at the conversation focusing on Mr. Ridenour's products.
Look, the problem is that, new, you won't be able to find a professional model from the major makers within your budget. You CAN likely find used instruments but the suggestion has already been made very well that you should not buy an instrument without trying it, if you can help it regardless of whether it's new or used.
Good luck in your search.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-23 08:44
Any of the Ridenour clarinets would be a vast improvement over the Yamaha 250. I owned a 250 for a while and it was SO SHARP (20-30 cents) almost the entire range of the clarinet ... seemed to be tuned to A=446. When playing this clarinet outside on a warm day, it was unusable. I think that part of it's design criteria was to play in tune with beginning students that haven't a developed air stream and embouchure, thus having a tendency to play flat.
If your teacher doesn't protest too loudly, you can purchase any Ridenour Lyrique RCP-576BC or Libertas and they will be very consistent and you will be very happy.
I had the pleasure of playing a new Yamaha 650 a few days ago. Wonderfully constructed and had nice consistency of blowing resistance from top to bottom, but the tuning is slightly worse than the Ridenour instruments, the sound was comparatively bright and thin, and some of the highest register notes didn't speak well. I suspect it needed some adjustments ... Still, a pretty darn good instrument, but twice the price of a RCP-576BC.
Tom
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-23 08:49
@TomS: I have a Yamaha 650 that I was using up until recently when I had an old Pre-R13 restored for me. I've had a similar experience with the instrument - a bit of a brighter, livelier tone (which can actually be a good thing, as it can really pierce through the ensemble) and very even blowing resistance, but too sharp for comfort. I found myself pulling out at the barrel, the middle, and the bell, which is not at all the case with the Pre-R13. I suspect their instruments are tuned to A=442.
(If you're good at dealing with the intonation, though, it's a nice instrument.)
Post Edited (2015-01-23 08:49)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-23 16:51
The 650 might be tuned to 442, but the 250 seems tuned much higher.
Hat's off to Yamaha for their excellent workmanship and good consistency. I could adapt to the 650s brighter sound with some adjustments in other equipment. I played the YCL-62 for years, and it was also bright and centered, but I found a MP and reed that mellowed the sound out a bit (Morgan and Bay H1) ...
I think a brighter sound can be beneficial in some settings. That's why, ideally, you need at least a couple of clarinets that are voiced differently ... I don't think it's crazy to have both with you when trying out an acoustic space or style of music. We do this with reeds and MPs ...
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-23 17:38
Mr. Bethea:
While I can only speak for myself, I suspect that Ridenour clarinets came up numerous times because of the O.P.'s likely need to "buy before he tries," his budget, and his need for a great value and instrument.
While I agree with you that this board is chock full of great ideas, the O.P. may not have the ability to implement those suggesstions efficiently, given limited access to brick and mortal (i.e. retail) establishments where to try clarinets, even in neighboring Tel Aviv.
Yes, there are many good clarinets, you're correct/I agree. And try before you buy: I agree, something to do whenever possible. But Ridenour's are in fact professional instruments (used and desired by people who make money playing them). And again, the line of almost exclusively hard rubber instruments, plus T. Ridenour's check of each one before they leave the shop, lends to consistency: that attribute so essential to the "blind" purchase that may be the O.P's only option.
If I were in the O.P's place, and had to buy sight unseen, for the same money, let alone the considerable savings of a Ridenour, either a barely used R13 or a barely used Ridenour, I'd still choose the Ridenour because they're as consistent as R13s, I believe, aren't. In fairness, with many R13s to choose from, so that bad ones could be weeded out, I'd likely go for the R13, especially if comparable in price (which the two models are not.)
Now compare a used R13 to a new Ridenour, the latter of which the O.P. can afford? It's a no brainer to me that the Ridenour gets purchased. The R13 and its seller are unknown. The instrument could have been bad at purchased and had considerable wear and tear put on it by its owner(s). The new Ridenour is, IMHO, orders of magnitude more likey to meet expectations.
My independent 2 cents.
Post Edited (2015-01-23 18:29)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-01-23 19:33
Another good option is Kessler Custom; ~900-1100USD
From what I understand the bodies are CNCed by Backun, and Kessler builds them with own keys. His builds have a good reputation, at least in a sax world. I think Chuck has similar to Tom Ridenour try policy. You can get several instruments and keep one. Not sure how it works with oversea sales give him a call.
Pers I'd consider trying his Custom over getting E12, even if resale value maybe in favor of E12.
http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/clarinet.htm
If you can go up to 2500 range, you can get Backun Protege good luck
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2015-01-23 19:57
cyclopathic wrote:
> Another good option is Kessler Custom; ~900-1100USD
>
> From what I understand the bodies are CNCed by Backun, and
> Kessler builds them with own keys. His builds have a good
> reputation, at least in a sax world. I think Chuck has similar
> to Tom Ridenour try policy. You can get several instruments and
> keep one. Not sure how it works with oversea sales give him a
> call.
From what research I've done the Kessler customs are made in China, excluding the barrel which is made by Backun. I was able to try one that a friend of mine bought and while they are ok they aren't at the level of your average R13. A good option option if you absolutely need a new wooden clarinet for under $1000 but not extraordinary.
I will say however that the Kessler custom tenor sax I tried was amazing and I would definitely consider it to be of professional quality.
+1 on the Ridenour or the Backun Protege. Both are great horns.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-01-23 20:13
@JD
do they still build them with leather pads? used to be an option
from what I've heard the bodies were CNC'ed in Canada, but all hardware was from China. Perhaps it is not the case now? you can always e-mail and ask.
Backun Alpha could be an alternative to Ridenour, just another option.
Irreguardless anything but R13 with M15/M30/etc and V12 is unlikely to get teacher's approval.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-23 20:23
Interesting about the Kessler ... the possibilities are mind-boggling. I'd like to give one a try ... Dave Kessler seems like a good guy. And I suspect that he has a great business relationship with Backun.
The Antigua Backun clarinet's wood body is also machined by Backun and shipped to Asia for key fitting. Reports are that it is similar to really good R13 ...
I still vote for the Ridenour as the safest choice and best value. They also play better or at least as well than almost anything else, IMHO. Maybe a top of the line MOBA clarinet or something really exotic might be better in some ways ... It's all a personal choice that you and your teacher will make ...
If you have 2 grand to spend, buy the Lyrique RCP-576BC and something else too! You will need a backup And, it's all great fun!
Best of luck!
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-24 21:27
The Ridenours are produced in China.
(Reader opportunity for gasp.)
I don't get what the concern is. Chinese manufacturers, like any other manufacturers, will produce junk if they are required to make 10,000 sunglasses at no greater cost to the buyer than $.08 a pop, to be sold as a party favor for a kid's birthday party, with a useful life of 3 hours.
Conversely, give them the funding, and their put a satellite in orbit for you, reliably; which by the way many other countries the world thinks higher of in terms of quality goods can't do.
Where better than China for hard rubber clarinet makers to source their wares? Do you want to pay for the cost of having that rubber shipped elsewhere for turning into a clarinet?
The trick is getting the right vendors, with the right commitment to quality control, paying them decently, and carefully monitoring them, as Ridenour does; just as a smart business person would do for any supplier providing components for their larger product.
Post Edited (2015-01-24 21:29)
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