 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-09 09:27
I am an old beginner with 12 months on the clock. I started with a second hand Artley 18S Bb so I know all about leaky pads, bent keys and blowing overtones!
Eight months ago I got a teacher and bought an R13 Bb. Currently it's at the importers to check out a faint crack in the number 1 thrill hole on the upper joint.
I have meanwhile received an "as new" seasoned Selmer Recital which I bought at an excellent price. My teacher is not available for a while in the new year so I am trying to cope on my own. As a beginner, my question is this.
I find that the embouchure I have developed for the R13 is a disaster for the Recital. At first I thought that the recital just had a lot more air resistance, especially in the lower clarion range where it seemed to choke up on pieces which the R13 plays with ease, but actually it only needs a little bit more air to get a great sound.
What it doesn't like is any pressure on the reed. Anything more than the slightest touch chokes the sound. I need to consciously blow higher on the mouthpiece and "freeze" my lower lip. When I do, the instrument plays beautifully. I expected that the differences in weight, bore and key geometry would cause me problems (they have) but I'm surprised that my embouchure - which my teacher considers to be good - has to be altered so dramatically. I thought that once you form a decent embouchure it would allow you to play any clarinet alike especially as the reed and mouthpiece I use are the same.
What worries me most is that switching between these two beautiful instruments at will, may not be possible, especially since I am a beginner. Am I missing something?
I use a 2 1/2 Vandoren reed and a Vandoren B45 mouthpiece for both clarinets.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2015-01-10 10:40
You should not need to change your embochure. Stuffiness or resistance are likely due to a small leak in the Selmer.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-10 15:00
Thank you ErezK. I thought so. Changing embouchure for different instruments didn't make sense and would be a disaster for me.
I am going to research how to chase leaks. I believe that this BB has some threads which may help.
As the upper clarion plays nicely and seems even a bit easier than on the Buffet, I might start with the lower joint.
Toda raba again.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2015-01-10 16:26
I suspect the first pad on the lower joint isn't closing properly. What is more accurate than a suction test is to use a small LED light in the bore. Make this in a dark room and you will see if there is any problem with the pad. Hope this helps.
Mark
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-10 17:29
Thank you sonicbang. I have LEDs galore in my parts kit, a soldering iron and plenty of solder. I am going to hook up a very bright (but cool) light source right now and check the pads. Great help!!!
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2015-01-10 19:20
You're welcome. Make sure that nothing is edgy or sharp on the device you put in the bore, because bore damage is difficult to correct. I used duct tape on my home made 'leak locator' and it works fine.
Mark
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-10 20:03
Already aware and nervous of the dangers. I am almost finished with this thing. It has a nice round plastic 3mm white LED (5cd) wired up, with everything but the end of the light covered by four layers of heat-shrink tubing.
As it's almost 3 a.m. here I might do the actual examination tomorrow. Thanks for the tips.
(Nagyon szépen köszönöm a segitséget.)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-10 21:34
My focus Joe will be on the mouthpiece, as it doesn't seem to be addressed [nearly as much] as has been potential instrument defect.
I know the B45 is Vandoren's "jack of all trades" mouthpiece. I grew up on one, and am glad I don't play it anymore: not that others don't love it, or that I think it "bad" per se. Given the opportunity to do it over, no way would I have wanted to start with this mouthpiece, nor suggest it today for students.
The reason I feel this way about switching mouthpieces was the degree to which I had to work on getting my embouchure just right for the reed, the instrument, and the sound I was about to phrase. I personally feel that the B45 mouthpiece's large tip opening, in addition of course to my own limitations as a player, contributed to my problems. I'm now playing mouthpieces like Vanoren's M15, which has a 1.035mm tip. The B45 has a 1.195mm tip. The only more open mouthpieces at Vandoren are expressly designed for jazz play (maybe that's your desired genre.)
I'll be the first to tell you, before others chime in, that while that's a big tip opening difference, and tip opening matters, that tip opening is also only 1 aspect of a mouthpiece's attributes, than can be affected by rail width, facing length, and facing lay, to name just a few things. But when I played the B45, sometimes I felt like I had to hope my embouchure was in the precisely right place for my setup at that moment or I'd "come in" sloppy. I found this problem, at least for me, directly correlated with tip opening. The smaller tip opening, the less these problems.
Some like the B45 for its flexibility. But this same flexibility may, for a relatively new player, provide just enough metaphorical rope for them to hang themselves with.
If you do change to a smaller tip mouthpiece, you may need to go up 1/2 size or more in reed strength. Suggestions include the M13 Lyre and the M15, though many manufacturers make excellent mouthpieces, not just Vandoren.
Yes, the Selmer may have repair issues, but it may also just have marginal setup issues that playing a smaller tip mouthpiece, that forces you to stay within a narrower window of play, may address. The larger opening B45 may be having you compress your reed to, say, 1.04mm, where the smaller tip mouthpiece starts about there. And as precise as any embouchure can be, keeping it within tolerance of 1/100th of a millimeter to accomodate different clarinets, may not be possible.
I will say though that I am glad you are staying with relatively weak reeds while using the B45, as Vandoren suggests.
I do hope you find solely a mechanical problem to easily fix. That's always faster than trying to convey embouchure concepts between players, where we all have different definitions for words, and can't get in each other's minds, or see thru lips to know what's happening in the mouth.
Good luck.
Post Edited (2015-01-10 21:37)
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Author: j8649
Date: 2015-01-10 23:36
Hi Joe,
I also have an R13 and a Selmer Recital. I find that the Selmer is slightly less resistance to the R13, but is very comparable. I think you may have some leaking pads on the Selmer. I would also check your hand position using a mirror to make sure that you are covering the holes completely. If you put your R13 and Recital side by side and look carefully, you will see that the tone holes are slightly bigger on the Recital. If you have small fingers, like I do, you may not be covering the holes completely. Looking in a mirror while playing is helpful in determining this. Also, the Recital is much heavier than the R13, and I find that the extra weight tends to shift my right hand position so that I don't completely cover the right hand third tone hole. Just a little leaking of air at the tone holes can cause problems. Using a neck strap helped solve this problem for me. I hope that this helps.
Julie
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-11 03:49
Wow. WhitePlainsDave that's what I call an answer. Thank you.
When I hit this difficulty the mouthpiece was one of the first suspects I had in mind. Unfortunately I only had a Yamaha student 4C and the original Buffet mouthpiece on hand to see what I could do. To no one's surprise I got lots of squeaks and squeals, but the resistance did drop a little bit with both.
I tried the 4C again just now, paying lots of attention to the difference from the B45 and it definitely lowers the resistance on the clarion C and D.
As I said, my teacher is not available now so I can't ask to try out other mouthpieces until he comes back. He recommended the B45 as soon as the R13 arrived. (And insisted that I throw the Buffet mouthpiece that came with the instrument into the bin - I didn't! I don't throw away anything that can produce music, good or bad.) By the way, he selected the R13 for me from a batch of instruments and had me try two out before buying.
I may eventually want to do Jazzy things but my main focus at the moment is on light popular (and slow) music of all genres. I will definitely try something like the M15 as soon as I can.
Post Edited (2015-01-11 04:08)
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-11 04:29
As I mentioned in my original post I did have other problems when I first played the Recital. Exactly the same problems you mentioned j8649. I was surprised by the weight of this instrument and it definitely interfered with my right hand and especially covering the third hole. This is still a small problem for me. My right thumb keeps shifting along to support the clarinet and I consciously have to adjust its position so I can keep my fingers correctly arched to cover all the holes. But the resistance is independent of this.
(One small blessing is that I find the right bottom pinky keys much more accessible than on the R13 and the thrill keys don't get in my way as much either.)
I have already tried to buy a neck strap, but over here life stops on the 25th of December and nothing happens for about two weeks. My music shop is supposedly open on the 13th again so I will be there first thing in the morning.
(I will have to give up a lot of macho claptrap to wear a sling and I'm sure I will feel like an idiot doing so but 'Ars gratia artis'.)
Post Edited (2015-01-11 05:25)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-11 04:42
Joe M. wrote:
>
> I have meanwhile received an "as new" seasoned Selmer Recital
> which I bought at an excellent price.
I have no idea what "'as new' seasoned" means, but I assume you're saying it's an older Recital that's been refurbished/overhauled? If so, the condition of the instrument depends completely on the skill and the effort that went into the refurbishing. Keep in mind as you build your leak light that not all leaks come from pads that are visibly open at some point around their circumference. Leaks can result from damaged pads - usually a torn covering - so that, even if it's seating, air can escape.
Also, a pad that covers weakly at one point and tightly somewhere else around its circumference can leak a little on the weak side even if there's contact, so you mightn't see it with a light. An irregular pad seat (the area of the tone hole where the pad contacts it) can also leak, although you *probably* would see that with a light.
Also, don't limit your search to the bottom section. A small leak high up in the upper section will cause problems for the entire chalumeau register, where it can mimic a register vent, but may not be as obvious in the clarion where there already is a vent open near the top.
Of course, the next issue is, what will you do about it if you find a leak? There is a definite skill set involved in correcting misaligned pads, and more still in finding and replacing faulty ones. If you really want to play the Recital, you may save time in the long run by just going directly to a competent repair tech, even though it may defeat your DIY drive.
I know the suggestion has been made that the B45's tip opening could be causing your control problems, and well it might, but I doubt if it would react as differently from one instrument to the other as you've described.
Karl
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-11 04:51
I have now checked the lower joint pads for leaks. I shut myself into the smallest room under the stairs because it has no windows or any other unwanted light sources. (Don't panic! It has a large fan to the outside to "clear the air". And I think it's the best place in the house to check for a "leak".)
I used my contraption which produces bright cold 5 candelas of light. I wrapped the lower joint in thick blue flannel, leaving the subject pad exposed and taking care not to depress any of the keys or rings. I checked the setup by very lightly pressing a ring and saw light from the hole.
I then spent about half an hour peering at the joint pads in the darkness. The result is: nothing, nada! I can't see any light leaking past any of the pads, or anywhere else at all.
As a secondary test, I got my wife to gently press the pads while I played a D and then a C at mf in the hope that a leak will be sealed by the pressure. Again, nothing. Made no difference at all. I did notice that as the clarinet warmed up the resistance did not alter at all, unlike my R13 where the warm clarinet is slightly easier to blow.
So, I will now test other mouthpieces and do some slow exercises to ensure my embouchure and fingering are spot on. Then it's up to my maestro as to what I do.
Thank you all for your input. It all helped.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-11 05:24
Thank you kdk. The Recital is about a year and a half old. It was "broken-in" by being oiled and played gently for a while as per normal practice. (My teacher does not like the term "breaking-in" and uses "seasoning" as the euphemism. I guess I should have made that clear.)
The instrument has been played four times since then by its very, very experienced owner. He now has cash flow problems - who hasn't - and has decided to reduce his considerable collection of instruments including clarinets, flutes and saxophones. I was the lucky one who picked up this Selmer which is "as new".
Like I said above, I have checked for leaks and found nothing, but as you say this might be a false negative. I will have another go at checking both top and bottom joints this time.
I am also thinking of rigging up something with my compressor blowing 40-50psi bone-dry air and using some means of detecting very small leaks. I don't think that this would hurt the clarinet but I might be getting carried away so anyone who knows better, please warn me off and I won't do it.
I am a real DIY person, doing everything from motorcycle maintenance to stained glass windows to iPhone repairs. But there are some things I would never do - brain surgery and clarinet repairs being amongst these. Fortunately I have one of the finest instrument makers and repairers in the country to do the work for me. I cannot begin to convey how highly his 50++ years of training and experience are regarded by the professional musicians, including my teacher, who are his main clients. So I'm in good hands, once he gets back from holidays.
Meanwhile I will persevere as best as I can. This may even make me a better player on the strength of "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger".
Post Edited (2015-01-11 09:43)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-01-11 07:02
40 - 50 psi is guaranteed to blow open pads that are held closed by springs. The springs are not nearly that strong. If you want to try positive pressure, just use your lungs. You will still be able to blow open pads. One joint at a time, hold as you normally would when playing (or plug the ring holes with rubber stoppers and hold down any normally open pads). Close the bottom end of the joint with the palm of your other hand or a rubber stopper. Use your mouth to gently blow into or, more commonly, suck on the upper end of the joint to detect the presence of any leaks. When sucking, the joint should hold a negative pressure for, at least, several seconds if it is adequately sealed. If you don't have appropriate rubber stoppers, slightly dampening your finger tips and the palm of your hand (eg. licking them) will improve their seal for the suction test.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-11 10:18
Yeah BartHx, it's probably not a great idea. I wasn't going to generate 40psi in the bore. I was going to blow air that leaves the compressor at 40psi through the barrel of the assembled clarinet to simulate blowing a steady note. This would allow me to diagnose the problem "in vivo" if you like. The pressure in the bore would be half as much or less. But I might do more bad than good anyway so I won't do it.
The clarinet is impossible today. We have had a sudden change to a wet and unusually cold Sunday and I guess this may be affecting the problem.
The instrument sounds somewhat dull and lifeless everywhere in the range and I find it nearly impossible to blow a sequence ending in D# to D (Spanish Eyes in E minor for example). As soon as I release the D# key on either side, the thing chokes up.
I'm tired (4 a.m. to bed) frustrated and disappointed. I might just have to wait to practice until my R13 comes back or until this thing can be diagnosed and repaired. That leaves me with four hours, (two in the morning and two in the evening), with nothing good to do so I might just get to read Keith Stein after all.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-11 18:51
Joe M. wrote:
>
> The instrument sounds somewhat dull and lifeless everywhere in
> the range and I find it nearly impossible to blow a sequence
> ending in D# to D (Spanish Eyes in E minor for example). As
> soon as I release the D# key on either side, the thing chokes
> up.
Which D# and D are you talking about? Because you say "on either side" I'm assuming you mean the ones just under the bottom line of the staff (D4, D#4) and that D# plays OK if not wonderfully but D won't speak at all? Check the pad between the 1st and 2nd fingers on the upper section (between D and E). A torn pad might easily cause this and also might be worse in damp weather, when the pad might absorb humidity and swell up a little.
Karl
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-12 01:47
No kdk, I am talking about clarion D5 on the fourth line. Mea culpa, I should have made it clear.
The Selmer has an added left handed D# key above the B and C# keys. That's why I said left or right release. The chalumeau D and the D#, which I play with the first thrill key are OK.
I tried practicing for an hour last night and B4 to D5 and their sharps are near impossible to sound reliably while playing. I was really careful with my embouchure, air and fingering and tried playing really slow but no luck. The top clarion is better but not as "alive" as when I got the instrument five days ago.
I think that the information you guys gave me points to a damaged pad or leak somewhere for sure. I can't fix pads so hunting for one, other than being an interesting exercise that I love to do, is futile. I'm going to wait till everyone is back and get this thing looked at.
Thank you for your interest and assistance.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2015-01-12 02:51
I have played Recital for decade or so. I can remember the first time I played a Recital: too much restistance with the setup I then used. It took some time to adjust to the instrument: faster and more focused airflow. May be you have a similar situation. 2.5 on a B45 seems to me on the 'loose' side and may not be the right setup to drive the small bore, heavy Recital.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-12 04:21
Thanks Jeroen. No matter what happens with the pads etc. I will try a new set of mouthpieces both for the Recital and the R13. If any play better I will buy them. Your experience with this instrument is exactly the information I needed to spend some time on this.
As a beginner, fast and steady airflow is always a problem for me and I was told before I bought the Selmer that I would have to work hard on that aspect.
I have tried 3 and even selected 3.5 reeds. They do sound a bit better and give me better centred notes on the top on both instruments, but they need a lot more air making me huff and puff and my teacher is against using them. I would still be playing a 2 except I sneaked in three lessons on a 2.5 without telling him so he grudgingly agreed to continue with it. This is all on the R13 of course. Maybe a new mouthpiece will fix this up.
Post Edited (2015-01-12 05:58)
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-18 07:59
First of all I want to thank all of you for the information you gave me in this forum to try to help me.
In response to your input I have bought a sling to steady the clarinet and have placed an order for an M15 beak, which is not very popular here and is not in stock according to the sales guy. I am sure that both of these will help me play better while I practice but neither have anything to do with my original problem.
In short, the problem has been found but the solution still eludes me. The chap at the woodwind store took 30 seconds to discovered what I was doing wrong: touching the lower sliver key while playing.
The B3 sliver key on this Recital is right next to the tone hole ring. When I say "right next to" I mean they almost overlap, there is zero gap between them. I have rather large fingers and when I cover the tone hole the side of my finger is always just touching the sliver key. As I play I inadvertently depress the key choking the sound. The action is almost imperceptible, only a fraction of a millimetre at the key and a tiny movement at the pad but it's instant death to the sound..
I know that my technique is not mature and there may be good ways to avoid the key, but right now I am stuck because all my attempts to do so have failed. If I move my finger away from the key I uncover the hole and if I rotate my hold to avoid it the fingering becomes very stiff and unnatural.
I will post another thread about this problem and possible solutions.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-18 07:59
First of all I want to thank all of you for the information you gave me in this forum to try to help me.
In response to your input I have bought a sling to steady the clarinet and have placed an order for an M15 beak, which is not very popular here and is not in stock according to the sales guy. I am sure that both of these will help me play better while I practice but neither have anything to do with my original problem.
In short, the problem has been found but the solution still eludes me. The chap at the woodwind store took 30 seconds to discovered what I was doing wrong: touching the lower sliver key while playing.
The B3 sliver key on this Recital is right next to the tone hole ring. When I say "right next to" I mean they almost overlap. I have rather large fingers and when I cover the tone hole the side of my finger is always just touching the sliver key. As I play I inadvertently depress the key choking the sound. The action is almost imperceptible, only a fraction of a millimetre at the key and a tiny movement at the pad but it's instant death to the sound.
I know that my technique is not mature and there may be good ways to avoid the key, but right now I am stuck because all my attempts to do so have failed. If I move my finger away from the key I uncover the hole and if I rotate my hold to avoid it the fingering becomes very stiff and unnatural.
I will post another thread about this problem and possible solutions.
Post Edited (2015-01-18 08:04)
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-18 12:20
Yes that's the advice I'm getting from another thread I started. Thank you for reinforcing that message.
I didn't know you could just bend these things to suit you. But I don't trust myself playing with several thousand dollars worth of wood and silver so I will have it done by the instrument maker I mentioned above ASAP.
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Author: Joe M.
Date: 2015-01-22 16:18
I just want to thank you WhitePlainsDave for the advice you gave me about mouthpieces. I received my M15 yesterday and I can't believe what I'm hearing. It makes a HUGE difference for me.
The beak needs to be blown a bit harder, but the sound that comes out is so much more centred and focused that it's like I am playing a completely new instrument. The high clarion is especially clear and ringing and I get almost no "cluck" when I tongue the notes.
I spent a little time swapping between the B45 and the M15 to check the difference and everything you said above is true. I have gone up to a 3 and now a carefully selected 3.5 Vandoren Blue (that's what we call them here, from the colour of the box) and I am playing like never before.
Most importantly, this mouthpiece has forced me to tighten my embouchure and open my throat. I can really feel the difference. It may be just a bit of psychology and all in my mind but I don't care. It works!
The neck strap suggested by Julie (j8649) is also doing its bit and I have stopped shifting my right thumb to try to balance the clarinet.
I am glad that some good has come out of the frustrating problem I had with the sliver key.
Right now I am holding a glass of fine Australian "Bawley Vale" Verdelho. Here is to you Dave and Julie: may all your C's be Bb's for ever!
Post Edited (2015-01-22 16:24)
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