 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-01-06 08:03
Greetings!
I've been loving the sound and reed friendliness of the M13 Lyre, but I've always had trouble tonguing in the altissimo (anywhere throughout it really). Today I tried the open G test where you keep putting more and more mouthpiece in, and eventually it ended with a squawk, but I was VERY uncomfortable with my sitting on the mouthpiece. Playing some excerpts in this position allowed me more rapid staccato, easier altissimo playing, and better intervals. However, my stability felt off and I was finding myself squeeking alot in the middle of held clarion notes (such as A or G) or just squeeking in general. Is this just something that I'm going to have to work on by practicing long tones, or have I possibly put too much mouthpiece in?
NOTE: Image link in post 7
Thanks in advance!
~Quinton Nickum
Post Edited (2015-01-07 03:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-06 08:40
Well, you do BACK OFF slightly from the SQUAWK point. It may be more an issue of you having gotten used to a position where you were squeezing the reed closed to the opening that works better for you. I recall Brad Behn saying that to me and it was a total revelation! Why squeeze to the opening you prefer, when you can use a mouthpiece that already starts off that way?
But rather than change everything, just concentrate on the issue at hand.
The 'squawk test' should get you to the best usable position on the mouthpiece and should also be consequently immediately better on ALL FRONTS. Perhaps there are some other embouchure issues that need resolution........but things should get better RIGHT AWAY. If not, I would recommend going back to what worked for you to avoid undue frustrations.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-01-06 08:47
The thing is I believe most everything did improve, not dramatically, but it was definitely an improvement. I'm just having stability issues with it. Regardless, I need to change something because my lack of ability to tongue the altissimo is going to catch up to me fast in my coming repertoire.
P.S: I did back off from the squawk point.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-06 14:47
It does sound like the amount of material you're now taking into your embouchure is a bit of a shock at the moment. See what that's like in a couple of weeks.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-06 17:18
Paul said: "Why squeeze to the opening you prefer, when you can use a mouthpiece that already starts off that way?"
I'm not sure he's got much wiggle room from where he's already at. .
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-06 18:20
I attended a very, very small master class many years ago conducted by Mitchell Lurie. One thing that I took with me was "TMM" or "take more mouthpiece". He showed us something similar to what Mr. Paul Aviles recommends. Mr. Lurie maintained that most players don't use enough mouthpiece, because there is a natural impulse or reflex to not do so. Maybe part of our "gag reflex" ...
Tom
Post Edited (2015-01-06 19:57)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-07 01:28
Here's my two cents.
I've faced this issue with students before. Same mouthpiece--not that I believe it mouthpiece specific or that the M13 Lyre is anything but a terrific mouthpiece.
1) Don't take this, "just to the point of the squeek and back off ever so little so literally." Maybe make sure to back off to the point where no notes squeak: which might involve taking in just a millimeter less mouthpiece.
Invision a rule of thumb of taking in no more mouthpiece than makes you routinely sqeek on ANY note.....etc.
2) Relax the throat. Remember how the doctor asks you to say "ahh" first before sticking the tongue depressor against your tongue to check your throat? We'll he/she is doing so to get you to relax those throat muscles and be better capable of not having your gag reflex kick in. Ironically, sticking that much more mouthpiece into a mouth not trained in such relaxation may be apt to more stimulate throat tightening (traces of gag reflex).
3) Mouthpieces like those in the Vandoren Master series, I find involve players taking in less mouthpiece before getting to the squeek point. If meeting this mouthpiece intake on the M13 Lyre presents you continued issues, you may want to give the CL4 a look see.
From what you've described, I just think you need to back off a tad more on the mouthpiece.
Remember the saying "the tip of the tongue should touch the tip of the reed?" We'll don't get me wrong, this is as good a way for students to conceptualize the process of articulation as any. I certainly wouldn't say, "cover that reed like you were covering the [aforementioned] doctor's tongue depressor." But in truth I may be a micron or two off such that the absolute tip of my tongue doesn't touch the absolute tip of the reed, just darn close.
Think about that as in applies to mouthpiece intake. We don't want to do something that makes it harder for us to play unless the reason why play has become harder has to do with some aspect of our technique we need to work on.
Hope that helps.
Post Edited (2015-01-07 01:31)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-01-07 03:33
Greetings! I know images and looks are not all that constitutes how an embouchure plays, but I would like you to look at these images and let me know what you think.
http://imgur.com/zlAmucK&rbIjZhe&4Sr7tvg&ApCezxo&zihBb0B&SOHzbuQ&9mCOBm9&PzAZMcQ&j9Ozkn6
Note: Some have been kept sideways so as to keep the original resolution.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-01-07 06:01
While one often is told take more mouthpiece, it can be very uncomfortable for some, causing the gag reaction and changing the tongue position and oral cavity in a way that may not be comfortable. I often suggest that people also try to bring the clarinet in toward the body a little more, changing the angle slightly. In that way the player is able to take more reed into the mouth without the discomfort. I always feel that the point would be to change where your bottom lip contacts the reed rather than swallow the mouthpiece.
Find what works best for you and for your physique. Focus on what feels best and works the best for you. Everyone is different. Good luck!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-07 06:07
Quinton:
I looked at the pictures and fail to find anything from looks alone that is telling me, "man, does this player needs to take in less/more mouthpiece," or for that matter anything about your embouchure that looks fundamentally wrong.
Remember that a good embouchure involves snugging the mouthpiece from all sides, including using your cheek muscles from the side.
So if your current allotment of mouthpiece is causing you to squeak, by all means try taking in shades less of it to see if you can rectify the squeaking problem without creating any new problems.
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-01-07 06:35
I don't have squeak problems with the emouchure in the picture. I can put more mouthpiece in on the open g test which has led me to believe maybe that embochure is NOT far enough down and as a result is hindering vibration. Maybe I am in the sweet spot though.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-01-07 06:59
From the photos (and the squeaks you discuss), I think you're taking too much mouthpiece.
Look at the mouthpiece from the side and make a light pencil mark on the reed at the point where it separates from the lay. Then put the mouthpiece in your embouchure so that your lower teeth are exactly beneath the mark. Anything more and you lose control and squeak. Anything less and you lose resonance.
Ken Shaw
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Author: robertnsmith
Date: 2015-01-09 23:20
I, for some reason, am unable to see the pictures. However, I had a similar issue playing an M13 lyre as a backup to my Walter Grabner K11*. The issue for me was that the M13 lyre needed a reed with a bit thicker tip that the Grabner. This led me to two conclusions.
1) don't concentrate as much on the amount of mouthpiece but concentrate on not biting. Contrary to what most clarinetists think, I normally think of my mouth in more of an "O" formation to remedy biting the reed. This helps considerably with the M13 lyre as it is already a close-facing mouthpiece and the reed could basically be closing off at the tip keeping you from rapid fire articulation.
2) I personally found that the M13 lyre just wasn't the mouthpiece for me. As someone who played the M13 lyre for much of my education (all through high school and college) I always felt I had to work too hard to get it to do what I wanted. I didn't feel that there was enough of a dynamic range and I also always had an issue with what seemed to be a scoop at the beginning of notes in the upper clarion. This was the most troubling issue of all.
After an attempted diagnosis, I decided to switch to a similarly faced mouthpiece by Walter Gabner - BAM, problem solved, no more scoop with little to no change in what I was doing.
That being said, try the "O" technique or try a reed that has a little more wood in the tip and see if that remedies it. if the reed with a firmer tip remedies it, there's a chance you might be biting. If that doesn't help, I might suggest trying a slightly different mouthpiece such as an M15. While many people believe the M13 lyre is a great mouthpiece, which it undoubtedly is, it doesn't work for everyone!
- Robert
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-09 23:51
Ok, I only saw the one image, but to ME it looks a bit too relaxed. The lower lip is kinda bulging forward. I would draw that whole area flat and firm (this is usually the part we all get right). But to accomodate this you need to engage MUCH more of the cheek muscles drawing down. I had some images of great players and their embouchures. The best one was an image from the 40s (believe it or not) which showed the active use of the facial muscles perfectly.
I HAVE to address "WhitePlainesDave's" "AHHHH" remark. This could not be farther from what you want to do. There are no mucsles in the throat to relax (unless you are a giraffe). What this does (the "AHHHH" stance) is to lower the back of your tongue DOWN into the top of your throat, closing off the free flow of your air column !!!!!
DO NOT DO THIS !!!!!!
Doctors want your tongue lower so they can see your tonsils. This has NOTHING to do with good clarinet playing practice.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-01-10 08:25
A good tip I got from one of my former teachers (from the Drucker school) said it was almost always best effective across all students to draw your lips and facial muscles to fit the skeletal structure you're allotted. Not all students can draw all their lip in and make a good sound. Just make sure you have enough in order to feel a good, firm facial structure.
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