 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-05 20:18
I need to lube some sluggish keys (a bunch seemed to go mushy all at once, that's a whole other subject). All I find in my stuff is a nearly full bottle of Yamaha "lever oil" (made for brass valves I think). As I recall, last time I needed key oil some store sold me this instead. Is it an equally good substitute? Or must I drive across town somewhere to get the right oil?
And I may have asked this same question here before... but search for "lever oil" isn't giving me anything, and neither is my brain search, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-01-05 20:56
I've used 3 in 1 oil all my professional life for my keys and never had a problem. I'm talking over 50 years. Make sure you blow all the dust out first or use a clean small paint brush. It's best to use a proper applicator so you can direct the oil to the key joints.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-05 21:27
Most valve "oil" is basically highly filtered kerosene. I don't think that's an adequate substitute for key oil. Ed's advice about 3-in-1 should be fine. Hans Moennig used to use clock oil.
I wonder how some of the newer silicone- and Teflon-based lubricants would work - most I've seen are sprays, so applying it to keywork could be messy. I have no idea how well these would work, just thinking out loud.
If the key is really balky, make sure the posts and the screw or rod are clean. Periodically you need to take a screw out and clean it before re-lubricating. A repairman does (should do) this routinely anytime he takes a key off to service anything connected to it.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-05 22:27
Lever oil is high viscosity for use on trombone and horn (and rotary trumpet) rotary valve levers and linkages (but not on the actual rotary valves) which have heavy springing, so that may be too thick for rod screws on clarinets. It may be suitable for point screws as they require a higher viscosity oil compared to rod screws due to the smaller surface area.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-05 22:53
Thanks, Chris- sounds like it's ok to use in a pinch.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-01-06 00:16
I would second always using a higher viscosity oil on the point screws, and even on overly loose/worn rods, even motor oil grade 30/40/50 will work absolutely fine although I use the "Doctor's" oils in my repair work.
But for most well fitting rods a thinner oil is really best, again 3 In 1 will be OK.
For the vast majority of student instruments out there any oil is better than none (none having been the norm for more than 50% that come into my hands!)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-01-06 01:26
For flute and saxophone key oiling, the synthetic oil from Music Medic is really the best, clearly allowing one to play faster and easier. Since the clarinet has few long rods in key tubes, most any key oil will probably be fine, even motor oil.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-06 02:17
I use motor oil throughout on clarinets and saxes as well as point screws on oboes, piccolos and flutes (as and when I have to do work on flutes that is).
I use a much thinner oil for the rods on oboes, piccolos and flutes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-01-06 03:05
If the keys that went sluggish are mounted vertically, it's due to shrinkage from the wood getting dry, not to lack of oil. That often happens in the winter, particularly if you have steam heat.
Try rehydrating the instrument.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-06 03:16
The speaker key, throat A key and side and trill keys which are all mounted across the grain can become sluggish as their pillars will move out of line causing the rod screw to bow slightly or the pillars to pull in and put pressure on the ends of the key barrels. Laterally mounted keys aren't affected anywhere near as much as they lie along the length of the grain.
Plastic instruments move in all directions when cooled down, so the longest keys (such as the LH F/C lever and RH E/B key) are usually the first to bind up due to their lengths.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-06 05:06
Lever oil worked fine, I had a good play session today. I think the sluggishness had built up gradually like most things do, and it was good that it finally became bad enough to be obvious. Horn was new almost 2 yr ago and was due for some key oil. Seller also said these sat around 5 or more years before being sold (Arioso- precursor to Lyrique).
I noticed the problem 2 days ago. Yesterday I played my backup horn which was new a few months ago. It's a factory second Lyrique with some intonation issues I may one day be able to fix. But the backup's keywork played so smoothly I knew my primary instrument must have really degraded, which I confirmed today after I gave the primary some lube. Perhaps eventually I'll pull the long screws and oil them properly- today I just applied from the outside.
Ken, no wood here- Ridenour hard rubber. Dare I say a superior clarinet material? (I love restarting a fight, LOL.) And it's been warm here in Orlando lately anyway.
Thanks all- good info for everybody that reads this.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-01-08 18:09
(Disclaimer - I sell various types of synthetic key oils)
While the main aim of key oils are to provide lubrication there are some downside to petroleum based oils.
The old clock oils (Nye) were made from Sperm Whale oil from the head of whales but with the decline (except for the Japanese) whaling they were replaced with highly refined petroleum oils. Actually the molecular structure of whale oil is very similar to the newer synthetic oils ( ha, Mother Nature was the winner again although it was used for echo sounding by whales). The problems with petroleum based oils are that they evaporate over time and also they collect the small metal wear products into a very abrasive sludge that wears out the rods and screws unless cleaned and replaced regularily. They also tend to change viscosity with the outside temperature which is not good in very cold or very warm environments.
The newer brands of synthetic oils are far superior to any old petroleum product and those made for NASA and the military have properties superior to most synthetic motor oils. The synthetic oils required by NASA do not evaporate (designed for the vacuum of space), do not change viscosity with temperature (-120 F to 800 F), have less shear per similar petroleum based oils, and form a molecular bond with metal to continue to lubricate metal in dry conditions.
People have used various petroleum oils for years but the newer synthetic oils have far surpassed them for use as key oils.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-08 19:23
And now I think I've been concentrating so much on "are my keys popping back into position as fast as they're supposed to?" that I'm noticing normal delay too much. That COULD mean my fingering has gotten faster... naaaah. Probably just the same effect as thinking too much about foot position while putting, or repeating a word like "pickle" until it loses its meaning.
Thanks Doc for the additional insight. Interesting stuff (I'm a mechanical engineer)- but still, while playing clarinet I DON'T want to be thinking about pins and lube and spring rates.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2015-01-09 02:41
Lately I've been using Tom Ridenour's Synthetic pivot & roller lubricant (ULTMAX) especially when I have to pull out a rod during key removal. Just a smidgin of a smear on the rod does the job when sliding back in. Prior to doing this , I also use a tobacco pipe cleaner to remove the previous lubricant , if any, from the inside of the rod tube.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-01-09 10:20
I agree with Omar. I guess a question would be, how significant is the difference in practice? I doubt more than a few if any would actually be able to tell... but who knows. I still use the better oils (like the ones Omar was talking about) because... why not? I have no issues with them. I occasionally see some issues (e.g. sticky lube leftovers) on some instruments where I don't know what oil/grease was used.
Re Ultimax that was mentioned, their oils are very good and similar to the good ones Omar mentioned. They have three viscosities which is good. However their pivot screw grease is very sticky (their cork grease too, if I remember).
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-01-23 04:54
I was STILL feeling a delayed return of at least one key. Today I attacked it with 3 in 1 oil (too much), eventually I'll get it all cleaned up, LOL. In one particular spot of one song, every time I'd slur down to E4 ![[E4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e4.gif) I'd get just a bit of Eb first because of delayed key popup. So I played it over and over- it was very predictable. I made sure I hadn't developed some sloppy fingering habit. The delay was real. This is after all the lever oil and 3in1 oil, sigh.
So I looked again at the spring, which on a previous occasion I'd found slid off its slot- it was still fine. I considered trying to bend it stiffer, glad I didn't go down that road.
Finally I studied more carefully how the pad was behaving. And I discovered it was STICKING. Then I read another long thread here about how to deal with a sticky pad. First was pulling dry tissue through closed key (gently)- that didn't help. Then I moistened the tissue with rubbing alcohol and did the same thing. Bingo- no more sticking (for now). And the bad spot in the song went away (no more extra Eb). And I had a great play session afterward, I think that sticky pad was degrading my play in general, sometimes it doesn't take much.
So, another lesson learned and another thing to watch out for. And I wonder how much good (how needed) was all that other key lubing and such. Well, at least my keys shouldn't need oil again for another 100 years or so (too bad it doesn't really work that way). And I guess lever oil is OK, but I'll probably stick with the 3in1 in future.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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