 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Zain
Date: 2015-01-04 06:38
Hello, I am new to the forum and I have a couple of questions for the more seasoned clarinetists on here. I recently purchased a Buffet Crampon R-13 from Muncy Winds with the help of Rodney Berry to find the horn that is right for me. My current setup is a Vandoren M30 lyre mouthpiece, Standard barrel and bell, and a BG super revelation ligature. I use Vandoren V-12 reeds strength 3 1/2 (I work on them lightly flattening the table and stuff like that). I am having a problem I just recently noticed. When I play my C (the one on the middle of the staff) I get a high pitched tone behind the actual pitch. It is very faint but apparent enough for any seasoned musician to be able to tell it is wrong. The C speaks very clearly but there is a higher pitch behind it. I am not quite sure if this is the definition of an overtone but in context it would make sense. Does anyone know about this problem and if so how to fix it. Thank you.
Post Edited (2015-01-04 11:01)
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Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-01-04 07:10
This could be some kind of problem in the clarinet itself. It may have air leaking out of the pads or a crack in the wood. Or it could be your spit everywhere. Does it happen everytime you play the C? You might want to consider getting your pads checked, or if there is a leak, just let the masters d their job. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO TRY TO FIX A LEAK YOURSELF IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW.
-Alex K.
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Author: Zain
Date: 2015-01-04 07:16
I don't think it is a problem with the pads sealing. How do I check if there is a crack in the wood? There shouldn't be though. I always keep it in a controlled temperature (70 degrees) and at 65 percent humidity and when I play I make sure to warm up the outside of the horn before I start putting hot air through the horn.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-04 07:55
I don't know if this would cause the effect you describe necessarily, but I have noticed that Buffet is using this crappy, spongy white foam material for the crow's foot and it DOES cause accuracy problems with sealing for the middle line 'B' and the 'C' above.
A student of mine just bought a Muncy serviced horn, so I know they leave this crap in there. Awful........just awful !!!!!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Zain
Date: 2015-01-04 08:03
My horn does have the spongy material on it. Would it be in my best interest to have my horn disassembled and have those keys recorked? Also, what is the best way to check for a crack in the wood of my lower joint and thank you very much guys.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2015-01-04 17:52
I've seen problems like this several times on instruments before and I can tell you that there is a good chance it has nothing to do with a crack or the corks on the keys. The problem most likely lies in your mouthpiece/read set up. You see every note that you play on the clarinet has some overtones, some of these more provinced than others. Sometimes when mouthpiece has just the right internal shape the overtones become audible, which is most likely where your high-pitched ringing is coming from. If you've ever heard of "overtone singing" you will probably know what I'm talking about.
While I do not know the science behind I do know that the problem is almost always solved by changing your mouthpiece. So before you send your clarinet off for repairs please try another mouthpiece on the instrument to see if the problem goes away. It doesn't even have to be an expensive mouthpiece, even the stock mouthpiece from your R13 should eliminate or at least reduced the overtone.
Good luck!
Post Edited (2015-01-04 18:01)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-01-04 19:40
Zain wrote:
> My horn does have the spongy material on it. Would it be in my
> best interest to have my horn disassembled and have those keys
> recorked?
It would probably be in your best interest to take the instrument to a good repair tech, play the clarinet for him and let him play it, and let him/her diagnose the problem. You're getting well-intended guesses here from people who may or may not have any idea what you're hearing and complaining about.
You could contact Muncy about this, but even if you sent it back to them, they might not be able to reproduce the problem, especially if your mouthpiece is part of it (as jdbassplayer suggests). Taking it somewhere local with a good reputation among pro players would give you your best chance of having the problem fixed without guesswork or back and forth trips (or shipping).
> Also, what is the best way to check for a crack in
> the wood of my lower joint and thank you very much guys.
Generally, you find a crack just by looking for it. Look down the bore and all over the outside. You might find a small hairline crack by checking for air leaks, but even if you find that the section is leaking, the leak is most likely to be a pad that isn't sealing well - torn, misaligned, too porous.
But in my experience the lower section is far less likely to crack than the upper section, especially the top of the upper section. Cracks are most often caused by sudden heating of colder wood. You breath is warmest when it first enters the clarinet.
Mentioning a torn pad does make me wonder - have you looked carefully at the bottom pad, the one that closes when you press the E3/B4 key? A small tear in that pad might cause it to "sing" as the edges of the tear vibrate. I only think of that because when you play C5, the E/B pad is the only open one on the clarinet, so it's the first exit for air.
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-01-04 20:36
One time I pulled my horn out, which had played fine the previous day, tried playing a middle of the staff B and got the most spectacular multi-phonic sound you can imagine. LOUD - like bagpipes. Upon examination the right hand Eb key spring had worked its way loose and the Eb pad was either open, or opening and closing rapidly over the tone hole. Basically there was a leak. When I fixed the spring everything was fine.
Like the other guys say, you need to have someone look at it, but it may be a leak, probably a pad. A good shop should have a Magnahelic, (an air pump with a gauge) which can detect any invisible cracks.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-04 21:10
And while you are having it looked at DO have the material at the crow's foot changed to cork OR a less 'spongy' synthetic (there are at least three different ones I've seen that work MUCH better). You DO NOT want 'give' at this juncture.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Zain
Date: 2015-01-04 23:32
Thank you for all of this. About the mouthpieces, I first noticed the problem when I was playing on my M30 lyre so I decided to switch to using my M13 lyre and the problem was still equally there. I am about to go experiment with it a little more, but in the case that it might be a crack (which I don't think it is) I am going to try not to play it too much. I will check both joints for any leaking pads or cracks and try both mouthpieces again and try both of them with 2 different ligatures. I will tell you how it goes. Thanks again.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-05 01:22
Only because it seems to have not been asked or addressed (although I may have missed it)....
Others can hear this in your play?
Others can reproduce this problem on your instrument..with their or your mouthpieces?
You don't produce this problem on other instruments?
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Author: Zain
Date: 2015-01-05 02:17
I believe I have solved my problem. The crows foot is a big problem on my horn because after only 2 weeks of use the crows foot is already worn down but the problem that was causing the overtone to speak while playing C5 was that I was using an old reed on a mouthpiece that was too open for my playing style and embouchure. When I got out one of my reeds I use for performances and put it on my old M13 lyre the problem went away. So it looks like I will be using my M13 lyre again for a while until I better adjust to my M30 lyre. (The reason I like my M30 lyre's sound better is that I can play louder and more freely at a good fortissimo compared to my M13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-05 02:56
What has the crow's foot got to do with the C not speaking or sounding odd? The crow's foot is more likely to cause the low E or B not to speak if it's over or under adjusted as the F/C key will still function as it should even if it's out of adjustment.
With regards to silencing material, you want the crow's foot to have something soft on there to keep noise to a minimum - cork and rubco are too hard and too noisy, so no good for use on the crow's foot. Something much better is felt or ultrasuede as they are both slippery and keep the mechanical noise down.
As the long keys on clarinets have plenty of torsion in them, it doesn't matter if there's some give in the silencing material as you have to work with the flexing in the keywork to make things work - throw the theory and text books away and work with what's in front of you and your own imperfect logic which will make things work.
Set the keys up so the F/C pad closes with more pressure than the E/B pad (but the E/B pad still has to close, although with slightly lighter pressure than the F/C pad) to ensure the F/C pad closes so E/B can be played with the LH or RH E/B touch only/ If you set it up so there's equal pressure when testing both pads, then soon enough the E/B will become unreliable when played with just the LH or RH E/B touch as the F/C pad isn't being closed with enough pressure.
This applies to ALL woodwind instruments when one key has to close several 0 they have to be set up so they get progressively lighter towards the lowest pad otherwise things just won't work. So work with the natural torsion in the long key rods, the softness of the pads and the silencing materials and you'll have a reliable instrument as opposed to setting things up in textbook fashion and using hard and noisy 'silencing' materials. Natural cork has a place, but there are much better materials in use today that render cork almost obsolete when it comes to keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-05 03:07
All great comments Chris (of course the "C" can be not closing when using just the "B" key). Maybe you have not seen the new Buffet white foam mess under the crow's foot. It becomes more and more matted down with use (kinda like the standard Valentino pads). So as you get use to one adjustment, the key then begins not to work again. Totally stupid and unnecessary. I don't know what Buffet was thinking.
Of course the ultrasuede would be perfect.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-01-05 04:51
Buffet have gone from using one poor material (that flesh coloured foam) to another with that white high density foam, so they're not on a winning streak. At least they're not using it everywhere, but they're still using that other foam though.
Yamaha use rubco but also in the wrong places as well as natural cork - I expected them to know better but they've stuck with the same materials in the same places for decades, so I doubt they'll change anytime soon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-05 04:55
Keep after the M30-lyre. I really like mine, especially when needing a little more push and projection in larger ensembles. Try the Vandoren "blue box" with this MP. In smaller, polite groups, my M13s with V12s or Legere fill the bill ...
Hope your problem is cured.
Tom
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