 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: winders
Date: 2014-12-30 15:49
Hello all
I currently play on YCL-450N with 4C mouthpiece and standard Yamaha Ligature.
I want to upgrade the mouthpiece and ligature
Could I get some suggestion what recommended mouthpiece and ligature?
Because in my country, Indonesia, I can't try mouthpiece and ligature. Because of limited stores that sell orchestral equipment, so I must buy it online.
Thanks for helping.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-30 20:17
Given your situation, it seems prudent to first learn everything we can about why you desire a switch away from this mouthpiece.
Doing so might help in better targeting you to the right family of mouthpieces, given the nature of your need to "buy before you try."
Please also accept my sympathies for what impact, if any, the recent downed AirAsia flight may have had on you and those close to you.
Post Edited (2014-12-30 21:32)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-30 23:50
I will continue to be the person who cannot stand the Yamaha mouthpieces (I don't know how ANYONE can get a decent sound on one of those).
For an upgrade (and very possibly the LAST mouthpiece you'll need):
Vandoren 5RV Lyre (non- 13 Series, regular beak- not the 88 profile) and a Rovner Light Ligature.
.............Paul Aviles
P.S. You're ALL welcome
Post Edited (2014-12-30 23:51)
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Author: nbclarinet
Date: 2014-12-31 05:49
I'll second the above advice for a 5RV.... It's one of the most tried and tested mouthpieces on the market
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-31 06:56
Ditto on 5RV-lyre. Just bought my 4th one this week at local store that had them on special. I had several to choose from, but the consistency is good for Vandoren.
The 5RV-lyre is a great MP, a very safe choice and a good upgrade over the Yamaha 4C, which IMHO is not terrible, but a little rough sounding.
I gave away/sold my first 5RV-lyres when I suspended playing, a while back.
Now, I have an "old friend" back to comfort me.
Tom
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Author: winders
Date: 2014-12-31 13:33
I want to upgrade my 4c mouthpiece because the sound is bright.
I also looking for new ligature.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-31 16:33
Can't go wrong with a Rovner ligature. They are rugged, well made, cheap, hold the reed well and will improve your sound. I've had one since the 1980s ... I've a newer one now ... Rovner has made small improvements from time to time.
5RV-lyre is safest choice, if you don't have a bunch of different models to try.
And, your Yamaha 450 should serve you well ...
Good luck and happy new year!
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-31 16:36)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-31 18:07
The "quality" of your sound has to do with HOW you use your air. I don't know if there is an equation for this but I'll just throw out the concept that it is 66% air and 33% embouchure. And keep in mind that this is a DYNAMIC relationship depending on how loud you are playing and what range in which you are playing.
For air: Push from the core (actively use your abdominal muscles to PUSH AIR OUT). Focus air by maintaining a "natural tongue position" or how you'd position your tongue saying the sound "EEEEE." Then tongue TIP OF THE TONGUE to the TIP OF THE REED (and I mean tips!!!!). That final focusing of the air is paramount to achieving a rich, resonant sound.
But get a Vandoren anyway. The Yamaha mouthpieces are terrible.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-12-31 18:40)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-03 07:40
A couple of thoughts.
While I agree with Paul as it regards the player making the sound, I can also tell you that I, and many other players, achieve the darker sound your after on some mouthpieces more than others.
No Vandoren mouthpiece I've tried better keeps the upper clarion from sounding bright, in my humble opinion, that the M30D. It has a similar long lay to your 4C mouthpiece but a considerable larger tip opening at 1.15mm, where your 4C is at 1.05mm. The M30D will probably require you to use weaker reeds than you are on the 4C, and will give you more flexibility than a smaller tip mouthpiece. I almost can't play bright on this mouthpiece if I try. When I play it, I deliberately use a metal ligature under the perception that metal adds in projection and minimizing darkness over, say, a leather ligature.
Flexibility can be good or bad, but usually bad for newer players, as you are provided enough "rope to hand yourself with" in the flexiblity of the larger tip mouthpieces.
As much as i feel it will address brightness, in your "buy before you try" world, I would not recommend it being at the top of your list.
By the way, tip opening and lay length are only 2 attributes to make a mouthpiece.
The Vandoren 5RV matches your 4C's 1.05mm tip opening well but has a shorter facing. The general rule on facings is the shorter they are, the better the upper notes pays relative to the lower ones and vice versa.
It's true---it really is a time tested good choice, but I simply can't speak to, all other things equal, whether others rate this mouthpiece as one that people go to when they are looking for a darker sound.
The M15 is also a great mouthpiece, shorter in tip opening at 1.035mm than your 4C, but of similarly long facing. Personally, I find the upper clarion notes neither particularly bright or dark on this mouthpiece, but of course, mine is just one player's observations, and we don't play the same.
I'm not big on ligatures making that much of a difference except in the one area you seek correction. Yes, the Rovner ligatures you mention will help unbrighten your sound, I believe, compared say to a metal ligature.
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Author: winders
Date: 2015-01-03 17:02
M15 has smaller tip opening compare with M30D. What is the effect of different tip opening while playing and with the embochure?
Is M30D fit well with French bore clarinet, especially with my Yamaha 450N?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-03 18:40
* A larger tip opening, all else equal, can require softer reeds than a closed tip facing. The player has more control over the sound, which can be a good thing for more experienced players, or a bad thing for less experienced players who benefit from the lesser control a smaller tip mouthpiece provides. Some say articulation is harder on more open tip mouthpieces, and yet I don’t find the M30D harder to articulate with than the M15.
* A leading reason, but certainly not the only reason why tip opening isn't the final word in what makes a mouthpiece, is its facing length. A longer facing, like the M30D and 4C have, all other things equal, makes it easier to tolerate a wider tip opening. But even here, things aren't that simple. One must note how far back from the mouthpiece's tip that the facing and reed separate, and the rate at which the two (reed and facing) distance themselves from one another as the tip of the mouthpiece is approached.
* The mouthpiece's rails, or the sides that can still contact the reed where it sits over the mouthpiece's window, are another factor as their thickness and rate of taper to the mouthpiece tip can affect play. Some have said that it is the M30D's rails that contribute to reducing shrill. But again, like Paul said above, YOU make the sound. I agree with Paul that air contributes heavily to sound production, but I might be inclined to throw in things like the opening of the upper palette, as if often achieved in double lip embouchure, and the degree to which the mouthpiece has--as it should--have pressure applied to it from all sides, especially from the side vis a vis cheek muscles.
* I'm not necessarily advocating a switch to double lip embouchure although I
think that you trying it, regardless of mouthpiece, is a useful exercise. Observe how it expands the roof of your mouth (upper palette and try to copy that in single lip embouchure: assuming the later is your method of play.
* By design, the M30D is compatible with both French and German setups: both instruments and reeds. I use it strictly with a French setup. Some people have reported that the mouthpiece sticks out from their barrel about 1mm, which is the case for me on some of my barrels, but this doesn’t affect intonation. The ligature has grooves in it to facilitate use of string ligature, but by no means requires one. I use a standard ligature; metal or leather (e.g. Rovner) will work well.
* The M30D has a cork on it that’s a bit thick, I believe to accommodate German setups. By no means does it, with a bit of cork grease, prevent connection to and detachment from French setup barells. I use mine on a Buffet R13 instrument. Accordingly, although I haven’t tried, there should be no reason why it won’t be compatible with your Yamaha 450N.
* And yet, despite all the positive anti-brightness attributes I think the mouthpiece brings to the table, I'm with the other guys about the 5RV and M15 being your first choice, simply because you are in a "buy before you try" situation, and these 2 mouthpieces are tried and true tested solutions, similar in facing to your 4C.
One note. The 5RV has a 1.065mm opening and medium short facing as reported. But the 5RV Lyre, as previously suggested, has a 1.09m+ tip opening on a medium length facing.
Post Edited (2015-01-03 21:26)
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Author: winders
Date: 2015-01-04 12:46
how about the mouthpiece option, like profile 88 or traditional? and 13series?
because my clarinet specs has 65mm barrel from yamaha website, should I buy the 13series?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-04 16:06
There is ONE ideal spot on any mouthpiece to place the embouchure. You arrive at that spot doing the "SQUAWK" test. Play open "G" as close to the tip as possible, continue playing the open "G" as you insert more and more mouthpiece, when you get a great big "SQUAWK" just back off slightly from that spot (back toward the tip). That is the ideal spot on that mouthpiece.
I remind you of that to say: the 88 Profile will feel SMALLER in your mouth at THAT ideal spot - so it's a comfort thing. Personally I prefer the standard beak, but that is entirely up to you.
The tuning thing is complicated, but I usually prefer the affect one gets with the 'standard' pitch (non 13 Series) Vandorens. I refer mainly to INTERNAL pitch. If the twelfths become too wide, a shorter barrel WON'T fix the problem! However a longer barrel (or just "pulling out") fixes a horn that plays a bit too sharp overall [that's a short explanation].
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: winders
Date: 2015-01-04 18:41
I suppose for 442, the 65 barrel will match with 13series, because it has longer barrel.
And for 440, 13series will match with 66barrel, because I think most Bb barrel use 66 barrel, not 65 like my clarinet.
Sorry if I was wrong
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Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-01-05 07:14
I would get a vandoren b45 with either a leather ligature or a standard vandoren ligature
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Author: MarkB2014
Date: 2015-01-11 02:13
Hello, I am a relative beginner, so please take this advice with that in mind...
I started on a Yamaha YCL450, which I still have, a 4C mouthpiece and standard Yamaha metal ligature. I felt that it was a little bright too. I tried the following mouthpieces in this order: 5RV (a great focused and clear tone but a little too resistant for me), a cheaper Fobes Debut (good for the money but a bit thin sounding), a Weinberg M3 (dark and mellow and very good, but I felt it was a little muffled in tone), and the Vandoren M15. The M15 is for me a delight to play. Low resistance, much easier articulation, much much easier for me to play the upper register, and a clear tone which is neither bright nor dark. I use a Vandoren Optimum ligature, plate 3. This also helps me to play more easily in the upper register and to introduce higher notes more softly in my playing. Note that I use Vandoren blue box 2's.
The right setup is extremely personal and if I did not have 4 mouthpieces to try simultaneously with two ligatures I could not have made the correct decision.
The very best advice I could give with my limited experience is, if at all possible, to order from a provider who will allow delivery of (say) 3 pieces, and allow the return of those you don't like.
In saying all of that, and having obtained a good setup for me, the best tone I can produce (and which creates the richest/non-bright sound) is when I concentrate on good embouchure, good breath support and maintaining an open airway. I get the impression that maintaining a good open cavity can really improve tone and take the bright edge off one's tone.
Mark.
Post Edited (2015-01-11 02:20)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-11 22:37
"I read that M30D tuned to 440Hz, is that true?"
In absense of finding any literature from Vandoren that expressly says so I tried three Vandoren mouthpieces, deliberately from three of their basic classes, using my Beefer and "A," and an adjustable barrel.
The mouthpieces were the M30D, the CL6 and the M15.
I am a sample size of one. I would not draw conculsions from me, but based on my testing, none, even on an extremely short barrel setting, was able to come up much higher for me than A440.
Yes, I could have tried more notes, more mouthpieces, more reeds, more clarinets, more volunteers, more everything.
If you're seeking an A441 or A442, I won't be able to do it for you on my setups. But Pascual Martinez uses this mouthpiece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpbo4G7F02g with the NY Philharmonic, which tunes I believe to A442.
He also, like me, is just one player whose results may not transfer to others.
I think if your worried about this mouthpiece coming in sharp you should rest your fears. I think that if your worried that this mouthpiece may come in flat, that you seek out a mouthpiece tuned to a higher pitch, as well as a shorter barrel.
Having been brought up with a Yamaha 4C, therein lies another reason for you to consider the previously suggested 5RV[Lyre] or M15, where pitch, I believe is an option at purchase.
Some say the M15 is a realitively dark playing mouthpiece too, if not as much as the M30D.
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Author: winders
Date: 2015-01-12 17:25
So, Yamaha 450 use 65mm barrel, which type of Vandoren mouthpiece will works well to tune at 442? Traditional or 13 series.
I'm a little bit confused, because many clarinets has 66mm barrel.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-12 17:43
I apologize that I haven't gone back and read all the traffic in this thread, so I may be repeating what has already been said - I just saw this last post and don't have time right now to go back to the beginning.
The Series 13 mouthpieces are designed to play lower than the Traditional Vandorens. Their advertisements say that Series 13 is meant to tune at 440 Hz, Traditional at 442 Hz. Of course, the tuning depends on the barrel and clarinet combination to begin with and other variables, including reed selection and embouchure/blowing approach, can also impact the pitch. But the bottom line is that a Series 13 Vandoren mouthpiece is designed to play flatter than a Traditional ("for the American market").
If there's a question about which will tune the way you need it to tune, the only certain way, as always, is to try both.
Karl
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