 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2014-12-30 05:25
I haven't read or posted on here for years, but I know I'll get great advice here! I already searched and read a ton of mp threads before posting this.
A little over a year ago the tip of my best mouthpiece cracked unexpectedly, so I switched to my second one. While I was frustrated my Gennusa Excellent GEZ cracked, I immediately switched over to my Gennusa Excellente GE* (star), with what I thought was pretty good success, despite needing a while to get used to it. But I kept thinking, "Gee, I'm better than this," as I compared myself to the playing of others around me. So one day I tried out several different mouthpieces, most of which just didn't work as well for me as my busted GEZ, including the same GEZ I tried at the music store that day!
So besides the GEZ, I tried their "best mp," a Clark Fobes San Francisco, as well asking for my old standby, Vandoren B45 that I played very well on years ago before returning it to my private college instructor. I tried each mp with a tuner, high, middle, low, slurred, tongued, fast and slow passages, etc., and was surprised that both the B45 and Fobes seemed to me to feel and play better than the GEZ, so I took both of those and left the GEZ behind. [I did read on here that different mp's of the same make/model can play slightly differently, so I understand why I wasn't immediately in love with it again.]
I auditioned and was selected for an all-state community band (here in MD), and once again felt I had the ability to sound as well as, or better than those around me, which caused me to question both of my newish mp choices. While hunting around for my stash of old new reeds (they play better for me than new new ones), I uncovered a B45 Lyre that I played on before the GEZ. I found that it plays EVER so much better for me than either the Fobes or B45. I was absolutely shocked at how well the old B45 Lyre felt and sounded - with a nice, round, full, dark, tone, good intonation in all registers, and great response whether I used a Rue 56, V12, or the Legere reeds that played best for me on the GEZ from over a year ago. I can't wait to go back to community band at the end of January, now that my playing sounds like ME once again!!!
If you've made it through my story above, thank you.  Here are my questions:
1. Since I had such good success with the initial GEZ before it cracked, should I have instead traveled around to try as many GEZ's as I could, to find one that matched the quality of the one that had cracked?
2. Have you had your mp crack w/o trauma to it? It was weird how the tip just cracked, and something that's never happened in 35 years of playing.
3. Was I 'supposed to' be able to have the most success with the Clark Fobes (which now I don't like), based on all of the wonderful reviews of it that I'd read online? And, NOW what do I do with this (expensive) mp that just doesn't work best for me after all anymore, compared to the B45 Lyre?
4. After learning the hard way to "always have a spare mp with me for emergencies," should I be satisfied with the less-than-stellar performance of the collection of mp's I already have, or should I have a second mp that I'm equally happy with - such as a second B45 Lyre or even finding a GEZ that works for me as well as the one that cracked??
5. If YOUR second/spare mouthpiece is a different model than your first one, would you be satisfied to immediately perform on it, should something happen to your first mp?
Many thanks!
-Lisa
Post Edited (2014-12-30 07:43)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-30 05:55
To answer 3.), I imagine the Fobes San Francisco and the B45 Lyre are very different mouthpieces (although I haven't personally tried either - just basing this off of my experience with Fobes vs. Vandoren, and off of online tip opening charts and product descriptions.) I like my Fobes CWF much better than the Vandorens that I've played, and having been to Clark Fobes's studio recently I've seen the amount of hand-finishing and play-testing that goes into each mouthpiece. But if you've played for a long time on a mouthpiece like a B45 Lyre, it might just work better for you since you're used to that style of mouthpiece, regardless of how good the Clark Fobes SF is "supposed to be."
As for what you should do with the mouthpiece: If Vandoren's online chart is correct in suggesting 2s or 3s for the B45 Lyre, I imagine those reeds would probably be too soft on the San Francisco. It might be worth trying the SF with harder reeds - maybe in the 3.5 to 4 range. (Not sure which facing your SF has.)
Post Edited (2014-12-30 05:59)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-30 06:44
Gosh, I've never heard of a mouthpiece just cracking without trauma. I'd be really interested to see an image or two.
What mouthpiece you find wonderful has NOTHING to do with what others find wonderful (you can use reviews as a guide maybe if the overall dimensions fit a "class" of mouthpiece facing you prefer). So congratulations on finding one that works well for you!
I have enough various mouthpieces that are similar, that at this point I need NEVER worry about having a replacement in case of disaster. But with an easily obtainable mouthpiece from Vandoren you should also never worry about a replacement.
One other suggestion about getting decent results from almost ANY mouthpiece came from this board (Tom Puwalski). All you need to do to help settle into the playing characteristics of a mouthpiece is execute a "SQUAWK" test. Play an open "G" at a point as close to the tip of the mouthpiece as possible, keep playing the open "G" while you insert more and more mouthpiece into your mouth. At some point you will get a great big "SQUAWK." This is point just past where the reed and mouthpiece meet up. All you do is back off slightly (back toward the tip), and THAT is the spot where you need to play this mouthpiece. That process makes it a breeze to adapt to any decent mouthpiece quickly. And as stated above, you may need to adjust reed strength one way or the other.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2014-12-30 08:16
Thanks for both of your replies!
Post Edited (2014-12-30 08:32)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-30 08:36
Another thing that might be worth trying is emailing Clark Fobes to see if he offers a mouthpiece that's similar to the B45 Lyre.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-12-30 16:55
Lisa -
The B45 Lyre facing is very open (115 mm., the most open they make except for the 5JB, which is designed for jazz) and rather long http://www.saxplus.com/vandoren-clarinet-mouthpiece-information.html. It's not surprising that it blows easily and plays loud. This design is also not fussy about reeds.
The downside is that the pitch is very flexible, so you need to control it, rather than depending on the mouthpiece. Also, unlike closer facings, it tends to produce an un-centered tone that doesn't carry well.
There's nothing wrong with sticking with the B45 Lyre, but I recommend you try an intermediate, slightly open design such as the 5RV Lyre.
Clark Fobes's mouthpieces http://www.clarkwfobes.com/mp-chart.html are almost all much less open than the B45 Lyre, so I'm not surprised that they didn't suit you. His most open facing is the 4L (other than his jazz model), which is equivalent to the B45 (non-Lyre)
The Gennusa Excellente http://www.rjmusicgroup.com/mouthpieces.html is modeled on Genussa's Chedeville and has a rather close facing. I'm not sure about the tip on the GEZ model,but I suspect it's more open.
Closer facings are more fussy about reeds, so you must learn to adjust them.
I suggest that you take the mouthpieces to your college instructor or a local pro to have someone with a good ear listen to you play on them.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-31 00:34
>>1. Since I had such good success with the initial GEZ before it cracked, should I have instead traveled around to try as many GEZ's as I could, to find one that matched the quality of the one that had cracked?<<
Lisa, perhaps your initial GEZ could have been repaired. However, at an hourly rate of $100/hr, only you would be able to decide if it was worth it.
Please click on link below:
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/mouthpiece-restorations/
Sometimes, IMO, getting that "old best mouthpiece" repaired is worth the higher restoration cost.
>>so I took both of those and left the GEZ behind<<
I reread you post several times. You never said your B45 Lyre sound "as good as" or "better" than your initial GEZ, only better than your new B45 and San Francisco models.
However, the main thing is that you are happy with your B45 Lyre and that, IMO, is all that really matters.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-31 05:00
1&2.
If the B45Lyre, B45, and Forbes all play better for you the your GEZ, that alone suggests to me that in hindsight, switching manufacturers was a good move for you. Couple that with the fact that you switched because the initial mouthpiece cracked (it sounds like for no reason), and I get the feeling that not searching for more GEZ's was all the more wise a decision. I've fortunately never had a mouthpiece crack on me even when it's experienced trauma.
3) You were suppose to have the most success with the mouthpiece you had most success with. Name brands are but a starting point for you trying mouthpieces, wehre the ultimate goal is to buy the one you like the most that you can afford, even if the name on the side is one nobody knows.
Now--there's something to be said about buying from a company that you can get a replacement for a mouthpiece from, should the initial one, say, crack from being dropped, and tknow hat replacement will play similarly to the broken one (even if you have to try a few) because the company has good quality control. Vando and Forbes I think, have very good quality control, as I think do many mouthpiece manufacturers. Worst case, sell the Forbes at auction.
4. I can't answer that for you for the same reasons I can't pick a mouthpiece for you. What I can give you are the relevant factors for you to proritize. In your own mind, contemplate the worth to you of the money lost to buy another B45 Lyre. Then contemplate the loss to you of having to play your next best mouthpiece. Go with the lessor cost.
5. We may be getting into semantics over the difference between a second/spare mouthpiece and a backup mouthpiece. Ricardo Morales is reported to play his second favorite mouthpiece as his first mouthpiece, citing the reasoning that the emotional toll of cracking that mouthpiece before a performance would be offset by the confidence gained by knowing his backup mouthpiece is better.
I've been meaning to buy a identical model of my main mouthpiece, but am as happy, (just for different reasons) with my backup of a different model. Both are Vandorens that can be easily replaced (I think) without paying a King's Randsom. As it turns out, my second mouthpiece is an easier design for me to play, I just prefer the sound on the first in the upper clarion.
Now don't go switching to a closer faced tip mouthpiece just because the B45 [Lyre's] more open than a lot of people play. Do it only if you find enough improvement in your play on another mouthpiece that happens to have a smaller tip opening.
Tip opening, like mouthpiece manufacturer is only one attribute to consider.
Enjoy your Spring season with the MD All-State community band.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-31 05:57
WhitePlainsDave,
>>If the B45Lyre, B45, and Forbes all play better for you than your GEZ<<
Dave, I don't believe Lisa actually said that.
Lisa said: "I found that it (her old B45 Lyre) plays EVER so much better for me than either the Fobes or B45" (that she purchased.)
Also, if what you said is true, then Lisa's question #1 makes no sense at all to me.
There are two GEZ's involved. Lisa's original broken one and the one that she tried at a store and left it there when she purchased the B45 and the San Francisco.
>>"...and (I) was surprised that both the B45 and Fobes seemed to me to feel and play better than the GEZ, so I took both of those and left the GEZ behind."<<
I admit I had to reread the O.P. 4 or 5 times to get what I consider a clear understanding. I believe I'm correct in saying that Lisa's B45 Lyre plays better than the store's GEZ, B45, and the San Francisco. It does not play as well as her "original" GEZ, hence, the need for question #1.
I may be wrong, however, I believe I got it right.
There's only one way to find out...
Lisa, does your B45 Lyre play better than your original GEZ before it broke?
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-31 06:20
Trying out a new MP is sometimes like a hostile break up with an old girlfriend or boyfriend. The next good one you find it's like: "Oh wow! Where have you been all my life!".
Often when I try a new MP, if it's had considerable success with others, well recommended, and my expectations are high, I like it immediately. You have to give it time ... live with your new MP for a couple of weeks, minimum. Familiarity can breed contempt. You will find things about it, with time that you don't like and become accustomed to and appreciate things that you didn't like at first.
MP quality (especially production MP quality) is improving all the time, IMHO. Today's B45 may be better than yesterday's B45.
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-31 06:49
Dan...you're absolutely correct that:
1) I read the original post as there being only one GEZ, and one Gennusa Excellente GE*, and
2) I could have read and/or interpreted the original poster incorrectly.
Thanks
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-12-31 20:31
Lisa wrote:
> 1. Since I had such good success with the initial GEZ before
> it cracked, should I have instead traveled around to try as
> many GEZ's as I could, to find one that matched the quality of
> the one that had cracked?
Personally, that would have been my first approach, although, if I couldn't find one local vendor with several in stock, I'd probably have ordered several online and returned what I didn't want to keep (pick an online vendor who will waive the restocking fees if you buy at least one from the batch).
>
> 2. Have you had your mp crack w/o trauma to it? It was weird
> how the tip just cracked, and something that's never happened
> in 35 years of playing.
>
No. Maybe something happened to it that you hadn't been aware of.
> 3. Was I 'supposed to' be able to have the most success with
> the Clark Fobes (which now I don't like), based on all of the
> wonderful reviews of it that I'd read online?
There are so many excellent mouthpieces on the market that there can't possibly be one you're "supposed to" be most successful with. Many players use Clark Fobes's mouthpieces quite happily and successfully. The same is true of Hawkins, Grabner, Pyne, Borbeck, (new) Chedeville, Behn, Smith and many others, to name only a relative few of the available lines. And there are players who play successfully on one or another of the Vandoren mouthpieces. There's no "supposed to" involved - except that you're "supposed to" like the one that you play on most easily, that best supports the result you're trying to produce when you play.
> And, NOW what do
> I do with this (expensive) mp that just doesn't work best for
> me after all anymore, compared to the B45 Lyre?
>
Well, you could sell it on EBay or, maybe to someone here (there's a For Sale section on this website). Or, do what many of us do - store it away in a drawer in case your needs change in the future. I have a drawer full of experiments on hold.
> 4. After learning the hard way to "always have a spare mp with
> me for emergencies," should I be satisfied with the
> less-than-stellar performance of the collection of mp's I
> already have, or should I have a second mp that I'm equally
> happy with - such as a second B45 Lyre or even finding a GEZ
> that works for me as well as the one that cracked??
>
For myself, I generally buy mouthpieces in pairs. Once I've decided to adopt one, I buy a second. The point isn't so much to avoid having to search for a replacement as it is to have a spare with me that will work with the reeds I'm carrying and play similarly to the one that's broken.
Fortunately, the last time I broke a mouthpiece was back in 1971. But I have had mouthpiece corks fall apart once or twice and it was easier in the emergency to use the backup than to gerry-rig something to replace the cork.
> 5. If YOUR second/spare mouthpiece is a different model than
> your first one, would you be satisfied to immediately perform
> on it, should something happen to your first mp?
>
It doesn't seem as though you'd have much choice. Which is why the spare/backup you carry should be one you'd be willing to play on *with the reeds you normally use.* You can start looking for a replacement the next day if the spare isn't a satisfactory long-term solution.
Karl
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2015-01-01 01:25
Wow guys, thanks ever so much for your replies! Your answers to my questions gave me a lot to think about.
I realize my timeline of events wasn't as clear as it could've been. Years ago I bought the GEZ and GE* together because at the time I liked different aspects of each one and couldn't make a decision. I bought both that day because I could, then played exclusively on the GEZ until it cracked and looked a bit like the photo in Dan Shusta's restoration link above. Paul Aviles, if you want to see what a busted mp looks like, check out Dan's link above, although what happened to mine wasn't nearly as deep into the mp, and the entire tip cracked off, causing me to believe that maybe biting too hard wore down the tip over time?? My instrument repair guy's comment was a variation of "stuff happens," and he didn't seem surprised. I don't know that I'd spend the $100 per hour getting mine restored, but now I'm very interested in finding another GEZ out there that plays as well as the old one.
Once the old one cracked (before the Overture to the final dress of Into the Woods - go see the movie, the orchestrations are very similar to the show!), I rushed home to get the GE* and returned in the middle of Act 1. Since I'd bought the two Genussas at the same time because I liked them both, I continued playing on the GE* for about a year before purchasing the B45 and Fobes on the same day. Playing on them interchangeably for months without a strong liking for either one, I finally found the old B45 Lyre that must've been my mp of choice before the GE shopping trip.
Whomever above referred to me going back to my college (Ken Shaw) didn't realize it's been 25ish years since I graduated college. My private instructor was the late Dr. Dan DiCicco, a Michigan graduate. I'm only dropping the name because Michigan grads here in MD have heard of him from back in the day.
All-state community band is a 2-day festival in August, and we didn't sound half bad this year. My goal is to chair higher this summer, with a mp I'm more satisfied with, so that I'm sitting nearer to those from my own community band. Our conductor was Harlan Parker, from Peabody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8yxKJj2dz0
With your encouragement maxopf, I've decided to firstly experiment with different reed strengths to see if I can have more success with the GE* and/or Fobes, as well as use Tom Puwalski's "squawk test". He's from MD, isn't he? The name sounds familiar.
Ken, funny you should mention the 5RV Lyre, a mp I played on (way back ) in HS. I'll definitely try out a new one. Maybe I'll like it again!
WhitePlainsDave - interesting story about Ricardo Morales. I know firsthand the "emotional toll of cracking that mouthpiece before a performance." Good I was glad both the music director and show's director were friends of mine when I discovered the tip of my mp had cracked off. The discovery process was comical, as the mp didn't work on either the Bb or A clarinets, and I finally found the problem when I adjusted the reed. Wasn't user error, or a problem with the horn, or the reed, by process of elimination.
kdk, thank you for the great advice you gave me in your reply. Good point about the spare mp being ready to play with the reeds I normally use, hence, carrying twin mps.
Post Edited (2015-01-01 02:34)
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